Internationally renowned Christian apologist and theologian Ravi Zacharias raised a bit of controversy in evangelical circles back in November of 2004 when he accepted an invitation to speak at the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, UT. He chose for his subject “The Exclusivity and Sufficiency of Jesus Christ.” I asked Dr. Zacharias recently if he were at all concerned about the potential for a Mormon becoming president in the person of Mitt Romney:
What we want is a politician who will understand the basic Judeo-Christian world view, and on the basis of that the moral laws of this nation are framed, and then run this country with the excellence of that which is recognized in a pluralistic society: the freedom to believe or to disbelieve, and the moral framework with which this was conducted: the sanctity of every individual life.
If we are looking for a minister to run this country just look back and see what havoc sometimes has happened when the church got aligned totally with the state. That’s not what we want. We want political leadership that is wise, political leadership that frames itself on the moral framework of God and recognizing that you cannot dictate political ideaology to all of humanity. That’s why Jesus refused to run for office, that was not what his mission was about. His mission was to change hearts.
But as you look back at the book of Kings and Chronicles you see one difference between every king: either they followed the Lord with their whole heart and blessing came; or they turned their backs upon God and then the entailments were there. And that’s what will happen to this country.
Would we rather have someone who is a total secularist? Is that what people are asking for? Are we looking for someone who would run this the way he would run a bishoprick or something? I think we should ask the hard questions of everybody, be it Mitt Romney or anyone else and see if the framework of the value of human life and the moral framework of the Judeo-Christian world view, (which is the only moral framework under which this country could have been framed. It was not framed under a Hindu framework. It was not framed under a Muslim framework, not framed under a Buddhist or a naturalistic framework) that we are all created equal, that liberty and justice and all of those terms that I’ve given only make sense within the Judeo-Christian world view.
Created? Equal? Naturalism does not tell us we are equal. Naturalism does not tell us we are created. Liberty? Islam does not believe in the total liberty of the individual. Equal? Hinduism believes in the caste system. The Judeo-Christian world view is the only world view that could frame this country. And so I think as we elect, we go before God and see out of the candidates who will be the best one to represent the values and at the same time be a good leader for the country whose first responsibility should be to protect its citizens.
This is a great country and the challenges we face are immense to a point where this country could be totally mangled with the onslaught of a rabid atheism ala Christopher Hitchens, Samuel Harris, Richard Dawkins, those kinds of vociferous, acerbic writers in our time who would like to strip the notion of God completely from our culture. For Sam Harris to actually say if he had a magic wand to eradicate religion or eradicate rape, he would eradicate religion tells you the kind of mindset, and his book is in the top ten bestseller list of the New York Times. There’s a rabid atheism out there and there’s a rabid Islamic extremism out there and the secularism combined with that. I’ve responded to Sam Harris in a book which will be released in the early part of next year. I’ve said to him basically his choice is not going to be between religion and secularism. His choice is going to be between Islam and Christianity. Secularism has no staying power and has proven itself in Europe today. Europe is on the decline and on the demise and it’s only a matter of time before Islam would take a foothold there unless the Christian world view reemerges.
Yea, Dan on comment #19 you definitely passed reading and comprehension and it is really great to know these skill sets still exist!
Atheism just means to be without God.
This is perfectly accurate and demonstrated by the men in history who did not have god.
Examples. Stalin. Hitler. Niche. Oscar Wilde. All of them lived terrible lives, and died infamously.
Lets look at some of those who actually followed the Doctrine of Christ. By followed I mean the way they lived their lives correlated with the doctrine of the Bible.
This does not include. The inquisition, the crusaders, the Mormons, the Jehovah’s witnesses most of the catholics.
Winston Churchill, Martin Luther King Jr. Most of the continental congress of colonial America. Martin Luther. C.S. Lewis, and so on.
All followers of Christ, and as the gentlemen before stated. Following God has nothing to do with following religion. God is both real, and very much alive.
The Bible is not some book on moral codes and ethics it is the word of God, and it is not a guide to live your life morally it is the law that governs this reality so much so that if you go against it there are consequences for it without God even having to so much as lift a finger against you.
atheism can not be defined as rabid. this personification is flawed. it is simply a term.
if we define ourselves a christian nation with a christian led government, which branch of christianity shall we choose?
baptist? catholic? lutheran? methodist?
shiite? or sunni?
always more subdivisions….
The office of the prophet in the modern society does not function as a person who adds or takes from the bible as he pleases, in fact at the end of the bible it says let anyone be cursed if he should add or take from the bible.
The modern day prophet and the prophets of old merely functioned to further glorify the Messiah’s message of salvation. The Mormon doctrine clearly goes against several basic biblical principles just as catholicism does, and also as the Jehovah’s witnesses.
The idea that there are two Gods is contradictory to God’s first commandment. Also Jesus clearly stated in the lords prayer that if you shall pray this is how you shall pray. “Our father who art in heaven…”
This goes against the catholic doctrine of praying to saints. You pray to God as the father. Also to say the Holy spirit has died and gone away also goes against a basic biblical principle.
The true Christian reads the word, knows the word, and lives by the character of Godliness, and shall not deviate from that truth.
Therefore if anyone should call themselves a follower of Christ yet follows a doctrine that goes against the Bible is in fact not a follower of Christ they are a religious person following a religion. Not godly person following a God.
Does that include the prophets that Paul mentions in 1 Cor ?
128. Kenneth Chipeta January 18,2008
The Bible clearly indicates that JESUS is the author and finisher of
CHRISTIANITY.
The rest are false prophets, that is including that of mormons
Karl,
I’m glad you cleared that up.
What a difference a few weeks can make. It is now clear the Huckabee’s record is very much liberal regardless of what he is currently saying.
I can understand your willingness to vote third party. I too, would do that if Huckabee or McCain get the nomination.
Regarding “Gunlock Bill’s” comment in #95 above:
“But Karl Fehn is playing right into the hands of the lefties.
He said “I believe that is if comes down to picking a true Christain (sic) (that would be Hillary Clinton right) verses picking a Mormon (like Mitt Romney), I myself would have vote for the true Christain (sic) (Hillary Clinton).” (parenthesis mine)”
Gunlock Bill, your parenthesis is very much yours, because I DO NOT believe Hillary Clinton is a true Christian. Hillary Clinton in my belief is far from a true Christian and I would not vote for her if it came down to her or Mitt Romney. I would do my homework and check all the other candidates and where they really stood with all the beliefs.
The point I was trying to make above in #93, is that I am not going to be stuck following the road of the Republican party if they choose a candidate I can not support. There are other parties out there besides the Republican party, like the Constitution Party and others like it. My point was to vote what you believe in.
I also may not have said it before, but we should all be praying about the choices we have to make that that God would lead us to His Will in all of it.
So, Gunlock Bill, sorry if you misunderstood me, but I would not ever choose someone on the left, I will be voting to a person that deserves my vote. Oh ya, if none are available, then at that time, it might come down to the lesser of two evils, but we will have to see when that time comes. Right now, Mike Huckabee is not only a good moral and ethical choice, he is on the right with no lefties wanting anything to do with him. 🙂
Really and truly, what is all this talk about a “secularist?” How did we get to this place in America? The very word presupposes a theocratic society, where the Church (or some church) rules and all dissenters are aberrant anomalies or unworthy and unwanted misfits–it is reminiscent of the word “gentiles,” a word which, by the way, Mormons employ to describe YOU AND ME, we who are not Mormons…. Our founding fathers must be turning over in their graves, for this situation is exactly what they most feared. THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE PERSON AS PRESIDENT OF THE USA IS EXACTLY THAT; A SECULARIST. Only such a man can guarantee democracy and religious freedom for ANY of us. Talk of God is not impossible for a “secularist,” but this means a civic religion usable for shepherding all our diverse peoples… It is thus left for the churches to fill in the theological details for their usually undemocratic adherents, most of whom, like the Mormons, claim that theirs is the only true church, and are thus the death of democracy. Jesus himself was a “secularist,” count on it. Not only that, but even a SECULAR HUMANIST….. We need to grow up, religiously, before we bring down the whole American experiment
What makes this country so “great”?
Actually, it is my understanding that Mormonism is looking for a “Savior” to lead this country – and they are hopefull Romney is it.
Personally, I would prefer someone who will uphold the Constitution over all others, and Ron Paul is the only staunch one in the whole bunch. A look at the other candidates’ historical records reveals a bunch of hypocrites that change views with the tides just to get elected.
Ravi is not making a defense for Mormonism being equal to Christiantiy in its foundational structure of beliefs. He’s making an argument that in light of our form of government and the candidates currently running for office, Mitt Romney (a mormon) is a better choice than the rest of candidates blatently running on a secular humanist platform.
Although Romney’s salvation may be in question in regards to his exact interpretations of Jesus Christ, his belief structure is closely aligned with those possessing a Judeo-Christian worldview. And that is a rare and wonderful thing in the political arena these days. Christ is not running for office (yet!), and until every knee bows to Him by way of force, we are not called to FORCE others to do the same. Rather we’re called to present Christ as the only way as a matter of love and free will. It is, however, our duty to maintain the moral framework this country was founded upon.
Our battle for the kingdom of God to rule and reign in the this country is fought on our knees. As Corinthians says, “The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty for the pulling down of strongholds…” This is spiritual and must be battled spirtually. In the meantime, let’s pray for a president God can use as much as He possibly can.
Mormons are not Christians. Their Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan. Their god is an exalted man that that came to the earth and had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus. Their god is on another planet, near the star Kolob currently have sex with his many wives creating sprirt babies that are awaiting their turn to descend to earth in human form so they can hear the Mormon gospel and eventually become gods themselves. Mormons are taught that if they are good enough and perform enough works, they can attain godhood and a planet of their own which they will continue to populate with spirit babies. This is a FALSE GOSPEL. Their false gospel was brought to Joseph Smith by a supposed angel of heaven. Galatians 1:8-9 warns us about this:
“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. ”
Jesus being the spirit brother of Satan is another gospel. God having sex with Mary is another gospel. Man becoming a god himself is another gospel. The subtitle of the Book of Mormon is “Another Testament of Jesus Christ”. Mormons are not Christians and need to be saved. Mormons are deceived by a doctrine that lines up more with other false religions than with Christianity. Muslims and Mormons believe that they will have eternal sex as a reward for their good works on earth. Hindus and Mormons believe in millions of gods. Christianity teaches neither.
Mormons worship a false “prophet”. Joseph Smith is exalted above Jesus in their teachings. How many Christians do you know that sing songs of praise and worship to any of the prophets in the bible? Mormons sings songs of praise and worship to a man, Joseph Smith. They actually have a song in their hymn book titled “Praise to the Man” which talks about how Joseph Smith died as a martyr and that the earth will laud his fame and pay for his blood that was spilled. I know that I, as a God fearing Christian have never sung songs of worship to any of the real prophets of the bible. Mormons believe that on judgment day, mankind will stand before God, Jesus and Joseph Smith to give an account of their lives and that no man shall enter the kingdom without the consent of Joseph Smith.
Mormons perform baptism for the dead – rituals performed in an attempt to save lost souls who are supposedly locked in a spiritual prison for having not accepted the Mormon religion while on earth. Mormons in secret temple rituals stand in proxy for dead people in an attempt to redeem their lost souls and allowing them to accept the Mormon doctrine after their death.
Heb 9:27 tells us:
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Furthermore, 1Timothy 2:5 states:
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
The false teachings of the Mormon religion clearly do not line up with the inerrant word of God, but instead claim that the Bible is incorrect, and is only correct insofar as it is understood through the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is exalted above the Bible, just as Joseph Smith is exalted above Jesus Christ. Mormons need prayer and the true gospel of our Savior Jesus Christ. Only through Him can we be saved.
Joseph Smith stated that the angel that came to him to reveal that all the churches of the world were false and that the only true church would be the one that he was going to create. An angel wrapped in light gave Joseph this “vision” to renounce all other religions and start his own. Why then would Mormons want to be known as Christians?
2 Cor 11:14-15:
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Mormons are good people who are trying to serve God. They’ve just been given a false teaching of who the God of the universe really is so we must share the truth in love. True Christians as well need to be aware of the fact that Mormons are not Christians and are in need of the true gospel of Jesus Christ!
Daniel,
Ephesians 2:1- And you were dead in your trespasses and sins…
What can a dead man do to save himself?
Dan,
The idea that we save ourselves is so far from Christianity. Salvation comes from God’s end alone through His grace and by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ….we have to believe, repent and turn from our sinfulness and ask Him to do that good work within us. If we are truly sincere and truly believe Christ is who He claims to be then the Holy Spirit comes to abide with us and it is He who does the saving and will continue to work with us to enable us to be more like Christ if we will allow Him and desire that it should be done. It is a bit arrogant to believe that we can save ourselves….if that were the case…there would have been no need for the sacrifice that Christ made. Maybe I misunderstood your ‘saving ourselves” idea but just wanted to be clear on that.
Don Symons
Mitt Romney is from MA! That should tell you everything! A Ted Kennedy in disguise. While Governor, Mitt approved of gay marraige & opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment. He only changed his mind recently on all these issues Christians care about like Pro Life. Just because someone says they are a Christian does not make it so. Remember Jimmy Carter? A classic liar. It is what they do, not what they say they will do.
Keith-
Just an expression that I have heard used when sharing the gospel.
I would like to offer another concept on being saved. Here it is. the Holy Ghost confirms and reveals truths to us. We save ourselves by heeding his promptings and being obedient to them. The Holy Ghost leads us to Christ and salvation.
Daniel,
I don’t think reading the whole article will help much. It’s just a short blurb, but I will still scan it and e-mail it to you if you contact me.
Thanks for checking out my site. Btw, I don’t’ save anyone. The Holy Spirit does the saving. I just get the privilege of witnessing it.
Keith- Took a look at the Mormon section of your web site. Didn’t check out how your saving the JWs and others. Big job. Good Luck!
Keith- I would like to read the article, not just his statement.
I didn’t say anything about questioning the context. I said I would like to read the entire article in order to better understand the statement made by President Hinckley.
Daniel,
If you would like a copy of the statement, I would be more than happy to provide it for you. You can contact me through my web site. http://www.evidenceministries.org
I have another question for you. If you are in agreement with what Hinckley said, why question the context?
Keith- If President Hinckley said that , I do believe him. I would be interested in reading the whole article to better understand the context of the talk. Mormons do agree that we don’t view Christ in the same way that most of Christianity does. We both believe he is the Savior, but we believe that his father is Elohim and his name is Jehovah and they both have bodies of flesh and bone. We also believe that he has been back and that he sends angels to minister to us, now- today.
I am 100% in agreement with the Lord’s prophet, President Hinckley. Anything else I can help you understand?
Don- Amen Brother!
Keith
The answer to the rhetorical question you ask is; Same old song and dance. “…and there is no new thing under the sun” Ecclesiastes 1:9
Daniel,
If we believe in the same savior, why does the LDS Church News quote current LDS prophet Gordon B. Hinckley saying otherwise?
“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.'” (LDS Church News ending June 20, 1998, p.7)
If your prophet says we do not believe in the same Christ, why don’t you believe him? I find it a bit ironic that I agree with your prophet on this point and you don’t.
On a lighter note;
When our King returns; We will no longer need this format.
“Even so, come, Lord Jesus”!
Thanks Paul for posting this– As informative as it all is I still am deeply disturbed about how Morminism views Jesus, it is so far off the mark of our countrys forefathers in my opinion. Im truely sadend by all the religious clutter that gets in my way of makeing important decisions in America. Im begining to wonder if I will have peace about voting for any canidate for president in the next election. The confusion persist.
Don– Again, there is only one Jesus Christ. He is the same savior both of us follow. I refuse to believe that he cannot continue to lead us through his words that are given to us for this day.
I know the prophets of old were rejected by their contemporaries, I know their words were disregarded, and I know they were slain by those whom they sought to help understand God’s laws and commandments. DeJa vu all over again, huh?
Daniel
You miss the point.
To a “Christian”, there is only one final authority for matters in faith, practice, and salvation. Not numerous as is needed to support your position.
John 1: 1-3 ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made…
14; And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us…..
Jesus is the Word, He was in the beginning with God, he is God, it was he who created all things that were made, and this Jesus was made flesh and was among us in the flesh, according to the scriptures.
Your Jesus is not my Jesus, nor the Jesus of Christianity, or the bible. Thus the need for all of your other authorities. If you were to use only the word of God as your basis for your doctrine the faith you hold on to would crumble.
I again hope, that the God of the bible, the great I Am, will open your eyes. It is so simple, except to the “natural man”.
Ben– The terms used by you to describe what Mormons believe are unfamiliar to me, but I do know that the father of all spirits is the God we worship and that he is a seperate being from his son and from the Holy Ghost.
This isn’t a sick joke and neither is the fact that he continues to progress, as does his son, and as do we if we follow them. He is an exhalted man. He is the God of all eternity.
I appreciate the opportunity given to me, by Don and you, to share a few of our beliefs with others, through these posts. God knows our hearts and will judge us by our intents and willness to share. You both are striving to help others find the pathway back to the presence of our Father In Heaven and I recognize and appreciate that fact. Best wishes and as I stated before, God will bless you for your intent to help build up and establish Zion.
Daniel you said : ” I assumed that you believed as most of Christianity does, that the Father and Son were the same God.”
All true Christians believe in the concept of Trinity. To put it simple:
1. There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4)
2. The Father is divine (1 Corinthians 8:6)
3. The Son is divine (John 1:1)
4. The Holy Spirit is divine (Acts 5:3-4)
5. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons (Matthew 3:13-17; John 17)
Your idea of what Christians believe is a well known heresy: modalism.
Mormon beliefs seems to be another well known heresy: Tritheism (he three persons of the Trinity possess separate substances or beings).
See, both Modalism and Tritheism are heresies. And neither are true Christian doctrine.
The God of LDS is not the God of Christianity.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1973 ed., p. 346 – “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man…I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in a form-like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man.”
What kind of a sick joke is this?
Because our discussion does not lead anywhere I will have to stop. I realize that you had good reasons to join the LDS and you think that it is the right way to heaven.
Mormons teach that : “Redemption from death, through the sufferings of Christ, is for all men, both the righteous and the wicked” (Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed., p.65).
The Bible teaches that “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)
This is no joke, your eternity is at stake here. If you trust the wrong Jesus you will end up in the wrong place. It is only by putting your complete trust in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, God of very God, equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit that you can be saved.
As I previously stated, this will be my last post on the topic.
May God grant you grace.
Don — Thank you! I just wanted to make sure that you understood that the prophecy was of the events spoken of in the book of Revelation, and not of the entire Bible. Mormons believe and teach the same. I guess this is one of the ways I try to serve the Lord. Sharing with others.