44 thoughts on “Those who believe the Iraq war was a mistake should argue with this guy…”
Since Palin was never in Congress, it’s hard to say. I’m just glad my Congressman voted no on it today (I’m in Dick Army’s old district), even though both of my Senators lost their minds and voted for it.
The Couric interview was difficult. But I have also seen how the media tries to destroy anyone who does not toe their line and they are not above editing an interview to make someone look bad (LOTS of ways to do that!)
I’m puzzled though. Why so interested in Palin? You’ve made your decision for Baldwin. Does it really matter? (I’m sorry. Just keeping the fires hot!) 😀 In the famous words of Bugs Bunny (a personal hero of mine!) “Ain’t I a stinka'”
The question is, how would Palin vote? I am sure she would read all the newspapers and make a definitive clear cut, well thought-out, never capitulated decision on the matter.
Sorry bro but I still can’t get over those Couric interviews. BRUTAL
Jeff,
Just so you know, I am livid regarding John McCain’s yes vote to the bailout bill on Wednesday. If it weren’t for the specter known as Obama, I might have joined you in voting for a third party candidate (but it probably would have been Alan Keyes.) This is the biggest pile of pork disguised as a bailout that I have ever seen!
Ok, I give. I will take the time and answer your questions. (I told you I was a glutton for punishment!) Here we go!
GR:”Also, I must ask also what you mean by “imperial action?””
JB: Imperial action is taking things into your own hands event though much of the world was opposed to it. The coalition of the willing was basically Britain. We did not go in there because of economic instability, we went there because of WMD’s, terrorism and mushroom clouds.
GR (Response): The reason I asked is because I want our definitions to be clear. Merriam-Webster defines “imperial” as an adjective meaning, “of, relating to, befitting, or suggestive of an empire or an emperor.” This is the definition I have in mind when the term “imperial action” comes up. As I have discussed in previous comments, we have not seized Iraq for any purpose other than to turn it back over to the Iraqi people, which is steadily taking place. Therefore, by definition, our action cannot be considered “imperial.”
GR: I referenced Matt Perman’s blog post on the Desiring God blog on September 19 “Why I Pray For The Economy,”
JB: I read it, however, once again, who’s welfare are we talking about? there are many Iraqi’s displace all over the region of the middle east.
GR (Response): I am referring specifically to anyone who is influenced by a particular economy. Obviously, in any conflict there will be people displaced, but for this particular question, I am referring strictly to economic conditions.
GR: “It is an accepted notion that Saddam had his mind set to control the flow of oil in the Gulf region.”
JB: Here again, we were not told this, neither was the world, the excuse for this war was to rid the world of the evil dictator because we are so humane. We were told at the time that Saddam didn’t have any WMD’s and we needed further investigation from Mohammed Elbaradei. Yet our leaders pushed forward with war. Would the world, would our citizens have signed on if the administration said this was about securing Oil interest because Saddam was thinking of taking over in that region? This is why they had to deceive.
GR (Response): Why the administration did not press this issue is not the issue on the table. I am merely enumerating the reasons why I supported the war and still support the war. Even Osama Bin Laden himself said that the center of terrorism is Iraq, therefore, securing the region is of utmost importance in defeating terrorism.
One more point, unless we have been there personally, none of us can verify the progress of the war without some level of faith in what we are being told. It stands to reason that the best source to verify in importance of this mission should come from the troops themselves. On July 4th of this year, Baghdad witnessed the largest reenlistment ceremony in our history (this can be verified on snopes.com.) These are people who know the situation first hand and are not coerced into serving their country. Doesn’t it stand to reason that if these soldiers are reenlisting at a record pace that our mission is just?
GR: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2)
JB: I am a Ron Paul constitutionalist; however, I find this part so interesting in light of slavery at the time.
GR (Response): I too am a constitutionalist, but do have some disagreement with Congressman Paul. I must call you on the slavery reference my friend. Slavery has not been an issue in this country since January 1, 1863. It is another red herring and is out of place in this particular discussion and should be discussed on its own merit at another time.
GR: Unfortunately, we have fallen prey to a specifically American theology that when we come to Christ, all of our problem will be solved! No more conflict! God has a WONDERFUL PLAN for your life! You can have your best life NOW! What about the Christians in Orissa province being taken from their homes, tortured, and murdered just because of their faith in Christ? Are they living their best life now? I certainly hope not. (By the way, what has the left said about this? Hmm?!)
JB: I agree with you assessment of the church, I am sickened by the lavish expenses that my own church has, yet I see a passing acknowledgement of helping the poor. I want to see the focus of the church on helping others and while the are doing that exposing them to the gospel. I am not sure where the left is in this conversation, other than a call to social justice of which Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren and Jim Wallis speak of.
GR (Response): I, like you, am also sickened by the lavish expenses that many churches justify in the name of evangelism that have absolutely nothing to do with reaching people for Christ. There is nothing wrong with TV and radio ministries, community outreach programs, food pantries, etc. but when the “ministry” becomes the focus, we have lost sight of the reason that Christ left us here, which is found in Mark 16:15 “Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.” What is the Gospel? Is it feeding the poor? Is it finding a cure for AIDS? Is it fighting against social injustice (whatever that means – it’s such a loaded term)? While these are things every one of us should be involved with to a certain extent, THEY ARE NOT THE GOSPEL! (Please pardon the shouting. I tend to get just a little worked up over this.) This is a main reason why the emergent church leaders like Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, Jim Wallis, Rob Bell, Donald Miller, Doug Padgitt, Greg Boyd, and Joel Hunter all drive me out of my mind. They all seem to be ignoring the eternal consequences of their “kingdom” theology. “What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? And what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Mark 8:36-37) It is the souls of men that should be most precious to us. I can give a man a meal that he does need, but if I do not share the Gospel with him, I basically send him to Hell with a full stomach! He is no better for having met me and in fact, I have made his situation worse!
GR: All of this to say that we have a real distorted view of how we are to live as Christians in this wretched world. Since many of us don’t have the guts to warn even our closest friends and family (myself included) that the wrath of God is revealed to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and that they have no excuse for their rebellion (Romans 1:20), how in the world can we expect them to act righteously? Each and every one of us in our natural state is a dirty, rotten, filthy, wretched sinner and the only hope we have is in the grace and mercy of the Almighty, Infinite, and Perfect God of the Universe. This is the only hope for mankind
JB: Well, I do differ from you on this; I think the browbearting theology does more damage to God than it does good. I used to be on board with you hear but I no longer view God in this Mad state with man. I know we can throw around scripture to back up our claims but ultimately doctrines are often created by cherry picking scripture and running with it. A recent example is Al Mohler and his “full quiver” theology, he takes one scripture in psalms to make the point that we Christians need to strive to have as many kids as God gives up. Not having kids or using birth control does not please God. I strive to love the Lord God with all my heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. I try to share the love of Christ with others not fear others with the Wrath of God. I know this is deep into the theology of Calvinism and reformed theology but I have a hard time serving such a mean God that I feel man cherry picked for a purpose. Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.
GR (Response): Get ready. This is a long one.
If I were to tell you “I have great news for you. Someone just paid a $1000 speeding fine on your behalf,” have I really told you good news? Not if you think you haven’t got a $1000 speeding fine. You might actually get angry at me for telling you this. Now, if I told you “This morning you were clocked by the police going 75 miles an hour through a zone set aside for a blind children’s convention. Despite clearly marked signs throughout the area, you ignored the warning and still broke the law.” After realizing that you clearly violated the law and that you are in danger of justice, I then tell you, “But I have great news for you. Someone you don’t even know has come forward and paid the $1000 fine on your behalf.” Now you understand what great news this really is.
Psalm 19:7a tells us “The Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.” In Romans 7:7, Paul tells us “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.“ The law is also referred to as a mirror and a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Let’s analyze one situation and see how Christ Himself handled an encounter with someone who seem to actually be seeking Him out. The story of the rich young ruler is found in Mark 10:17-27
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Notice that Jesus never once told him that He had a wonderful plan for his life if he would just follow Him. He first asked him why did the young man call Him good since there is none that is good but God. Then He went straight to the law and asked the young man if he had kept specific commandments and the response was “I have kept these from my youth.”
It is then that the Lord addressed the root of this young man’s worldview. He asked him to sell all that he had and give it to the poor and then follow Him. The young man went away sorrowful because he had great riches and obviously he loved them more than the God who gave him life itself. It is also striking that Jesus did not run after him to try and persuade him to repent. All we can hope for this young man is that the since the seed of the Gospel was planted, hopefully one day it took root in a heart of good soil and that man is in the presence of the Lord today.
The bottom line of my sharing this passage is this question. Was Jesus “browbeating” this young man? Certainly not! But doesn’t it stand to reason that if Christ commanded us to “preach the Gospel to every creature,” shouldn’t we follow His own example on how to do it?
Another question is do you really think our actions do damage to God? I’m sorry, my friend, but even if you are not a Calvinist, doesn’t this lower the view of God? God is the Almighty Sovereign Creator of the universe. The Bible tells us that by Him does all things consist (Colossians 1:17) which says to me that God’s not real worried about anything and that everything is under His command. God is the one who makes the way straight and nothing we do can circumvent His will and plan.
You bring up a reference to Al Moehler regarding the “quiver-full” passage in Proverbs. Honestly, this has nothing to do with this discussion and is another red herring. I realize you are trying to give an example of “cherry-picking,” but I would need a lot more detail before I could determine if that is the case.
I also find this quote of yours intriguing. “I strive to love the Lord God with all my heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. I try to share the love of Christ with others not fear others with the Wrath of God. I know this is deep into the theology of Calvinism and reformed theology but I have a hard time serving such a mean God that I feel man cherry picked for a purpose. Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.” I am not questioning your love of God. However, I do want you to daily question yourself and seek Him with all of your heart. But if we make a god based on our own visions of who WE want God to be, that is nothing short of idolatry and is a violation of the second commandment. I would encourage you to think through who God truly is and why He is righteous in His anger against Man. When Adam sinned, did God have the right to cast him into Hell immediately? Of course He did. But He didn’t. That fact alone is enough to praise Him. If He had decided that Man was not worth saving, would He have been righteous? Of course. God is the standard bearer and if we do not measure up to the standard, which is sinless perfection, we deserve Hell. But God did not do that. He made the way of salvation and has given us the job of telling every single person we come in contact with that first of all, they have violated God’s law and deserve the punishment of Hell and when the law has fulfilled it’s purpose of showing us the exceeding sinfulness of sin, then we must let them know that God Himself made the way of redemption possible and that in and of ourselves, we are totally unable to have anything whatsoever to do with our own salvation.
I need to call you on this particular line. “Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.” What exactly did you mean? Do you honestly think that Calvinist are trying to control people? As far as what happens to us, how in the world can we control others and why is that beneficial to us? Certainly there are cults out there who attempt to control people and “keep them in line,” so are you calling us members of a cult?
I have taken the most time on this issue because it is the one issue that chages the hearts of men. We can go around and around about the war and it won’t make a difference. But the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I have been so convicted of this over the last six months and am now very involved in sharing my faith because there is only a certain amount of time left to do it.
JB’s comments not responding to anything: So here are some of the questions, do you think this administration was honest about it claims on the justification for war? If so, why were there no WMD’s found? If it was about economics and the security of the world then why couldn’t they have sold the war on those grounds? Going further into this war and all the issues around it, what are your thoughts on torture? There is a report out yesterday that Condi Rice admitted in writing that the administration knew and was complicit in the torture of detainees. All the while this president claimed “We don’t torture.” Even though it breaks every wartime law. I know we are talking about the war but this issue goes hand in hand, after all we wouldn’t be torture folks if we weren’t fighting this “war on (the emotion of) terror”
Greg, I am not trying to “get you” with those questions, for me, these were the issues that as I used to support everything Bush did made me pause and say hmmmmmm.
GR (Response): I think to better understand your opposition to the war, I need some clarification. You have said that you are not against war but you do not feel that this war is justified. Could you discuss a war that you do think was just and compare it to this war and enumerate the differences? I think that you will find that in every war, there are those who on philosophical grounds honestly opposed it and you will find that there are many on both sides in each war that are not always totally honest or objective.
I know you have a lot of questions and I have done what I can at this point to answer them. Please understand that my purpose here is to give an answer to legitimate questions, but at some point I have to ask, will I truly change someone’s mind in this discussion? The honest answer is of course not. Only God can change another’s mind. So I am going to ask these final questions rhetorically, because the answers do not affect me and my worldview, but I do hope that they are taken in the spirit in which they are meant. When was the last time you read your Bible, just to spend time with your Lord? This morning, last week, six months ago? What about a time of prayer where you don’t ask anything from God but you used use it as a time to praise Him? When was the last time you purposely shared your faith with anyone? Six months ago, I did not like the answers to these questions in my own life. I certainly am not perfect, but God is changing my heart and I am growing in mercy and compassion for all that I come in contact with. I certainly pray that it is the same for you. Thank you for the exchanges, Jeff. You are a thoughtful and genuine person. I wish you Godspeed in you pursuit of Him. May you find Him and may you became the beacon He has called all of His true children to be.
Don’t you have your own blog, Jeff? Thought you could use a shameless plug! 😀
“many who had something of value to say have not been participating lately, thats too bad”
The content has been rather slim from Mr. Edwards as we are still discussing something that was posted on 9-18.
I want to talk Palin…..hahaha This is where Paul tells me to get my own blog. HAHA 😉
Hello, new to responding here but a long time reader.
Not too long ago one of the regulars was rather ill spirited and criticized one of your contributors for being “voluminous”. As I read on I have to conclude that the intent of that particular post was personal rather than editorial. I feel much better now. Thanks
I will continue to follow as I find all of these entries thought provoking. For what its worth, many who had something of value to say have not been participating lately, thats too bad. Mike, Ben, Nancy, Don, and numerous others, your thoughts were stimulating. Thank you Paul for your labor in this endeavor.
“Besides, the Democrats also had access to the same intel as the Republicans and enough of them voted to invade.”
A point of clarification is needed on a statement like that, the authorized it under certain preconditions, of which the administration needed to lie about to go to war. Yellow cake uranium, remember that?
“Islamic jihad that has been going on for the last 1500 years. We did nothing to spark this hatred because the militant Islamist hate Christians, Jews and anyone who does not agree with their religion of hate.”
I understand this worldview, we Christians and Jews are good and those Islamic terrorist are bad. You do understand that during the crusades we Christians did a lot of awful things to the turks(as they were called). We should never look at this as a Good v Evil thing, there is plenty of evil in our history and even in our present day.
“The unfortunate situation we have found ourselves in today is that we have an unadulterated, unabashed (at least by his associations and his own autobiographies) Socialist as the nominee of one of the only two major political parties with a prayer of winning the White House. This is too risky a scenario to not vote for a candidate that at least has the chance of defeating him.”
It is statements like this and mindsets like this that make you and folks like you perfect for the political process. I hope that you realize that fear is what is motivating you. You fear the idea of a socialist running the country, this is how many things work out for Christians fear is at the heart of most things that motivate most people and this is amplified in Christian circles. The fear of Hell is the most motivating factor and at the heart of many Christian doctrines.
Greg, I know you don’t feel that the administration did anything deceiving to get us into this war and I would think that at all costs you would doubt anything that is put before you as factual. This would completely change your worldview; it would start to put into question the leaders of our faith who were in lock step with the president and his neocons buds in Washington. I went through that about 2 years ago, it was hard and at time gut wrenching. Many of the folks that I held in very high esteem were being exposed as frauds and politicians more than Christ followers. We Christian need to realize that the republican party is corrupt, just like the democratic party. They use abortion and gay rights as wedge issues to keep one of the largest voting bloc coming back to the voting booths. Then once they get in office it is all big business and corporate greed. I no longer let fear and deception determine my vote, I vote with principle, just like to corrupt Christian leaders in the republican party told me to do all these years.
I urge you to take off you right wing hat and examine the facts. Look at claims made back then. IE, Bush made a statement that Saddam was 6 months away from producing WMD’s. The “liberal” NYT’s called the source of the claim, they stated it was not new intelligence it was a report from 1991. When Bush was called to the carpet on it did he correct it, no, he kept on the war path. All this stuff can be looked up and verify. Truth does still exist, BTW, there are many other example of this type of stuff. If you, as you stated “I do not see where this administration actually set out to deceive anyone regarding the invasion of Iraq” then research it objectively.
Greg, you seem like a great guy I am only asking that you consider all sources when researching stuff. If you get reports and stuff from right wing neocons then you are going to get their slant, like all things the truth usually falls in the middle.
Some books on this topic:
The greatest story over sold by liberal Frank Rich
Conservatives without conscience by conservative John W Dean.
BTW, anyone want to talk Sarah Palin? Thoughts on her recent interviews with those awful liberals Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric? What about the debate tonight? The conservatives are so afraid of this that they are crying fowl on the moderator even though it was clear when they sign off that she was writing this book. Let’s talk………
Jeff,
I just happened to come across that article again and wanted to get your take. I have thought some more about this (OK I’m a glutton for punishment!) and I am just not convinced that after 16 UN resolutions over the course of 12 years that we “rushed” into this war, especially considering Saddam’s defiance. Besides, the Democrats also had access to the same intel as the Republicans and enough of them voted to invade.
Personally, I laid out my case previously and it is based on factors that I observed over the last 25 years since the Iranian hostage crisis and the fact of militant Islamic jihad that has been going on for the last 1500 years. We did nothing to spark this hatred because the militant Islamist hate Christians, Jews and anyone who does not agree with their religion of hate.
I do however agree with you that blind faith in a particular party is never a good thing because if any 2 people agree on everything, 1 of them is unnecessary! But seriously, it takes no intelligence to blindly follow anyone 100% of the time. We all need to weigh the important issues within the framework of scripture (the infallible, inerrant, Holy Word of God) and then vote accordingly. You have decided to vote for Chuck Baldwin and on the surface, I have no problem with that. The unfortunate situation we have found ourselves in today is that we have an unadulterated, unabashed (at least by his associations and his own autobiographies) Socialist as the nominee of one of the only two major political parties with a prayer of winning the White House. This is too risky a scenario to not vote for a candidate that at least has the chance of defeating him.
I know you have had problems with President Bush. My problem is that he is a Republican before he is a conservative and because of his “new-tone” politics, Republicans have an identity problem. Thankfully we do have guys like Mike Pence that are truly conservative and it’s these guys that have served us well over the last 2 weeks (but that’s another issue altogether!)
To answer your last question, I do not see where this administration actually set out to deceive anyone regarding the invasion of Iraq. At the worst, it was based on faulty intel, but the premise was sound and an acceptable time frame was taken to attempt more diplomatic solutions to solve the problems. When the diplomatic solutions failed, that was when the invasion began. I know you don’t agree, but I have not been convinced to the contrary.
By the way, this is kind of off the cuff and I know I’ve left out some of your questions, but I’ve got to get back to work. Thanks for listening.
Greg,
I thought you were conceding on this conversation? If not, will you find the time to answer the questions that I posed in post 24?
Regarding this article, I am fully aware of that report, however, as one of the comments posted below it stated and it was right. These were degrated weapons that WE sold them back in the 80’s. I am not debating that they didn’t have them at one point, we know we did because we sold them to Saddam. The question was how was it sold to the public. The administration used fear mongering tactics to sell this war. They used 911, smoking gun, mushroom cloud etc, etc to get public buy in, it worked. As I have stated Greg, the issue is not with war, I am for it ONLY when all other options have been exhausted and there is nothing left to do. I would really like to hear it from someone who supports this war that this was done. Or if you feel that exhausting every option is not a bad thing. If you feel that preemptive war is OK then please by all means justify it. I hope in the process you can take off the right v left mindset and think what is right and just in the eyes of God. If our leaders decieved to start a war is that OK?
Hey Jeff,
I just came across this piece and wanted your opinion on it:
Thanks for understanding about the time issue. I would enjoy discussing this more at a later time because you do raise valid issues that should be thoughtfully addressed. Maybe we can do that in the future.
B/Bo…sometimes comment just incites the natives…they appear to be riled-up already…*: )
Greg,
I understand you not being able to continue, however, I was really hoping you could have answered the last questions that I posed because I think an honest answer from Christians would reveal that there are some discrepancies with supporting the actions in Iraq. However, you are right it probably would have gone around and around.
On to Campaign stuff:
I have to tell you what I have seen from the conservative movement and this campaign is truly surreal. On Thursday all the pundits on the right were talking how heroic McCain was for riding on his white horse to Washington to solve our issues. On Friday conservatives and liberals are telling him it might be best if he just stay out. Add to that the 3 interviews with Sarah Palin and now there are writers on Townhall.com saying maybe she needs to do what is best for her country and family and just bow out. Maybe the conspiracy theory that I wrote about above is the only chance that conservatives have of maintaining power. Who knows????
What, no running commentary blog posts from the debates? Is Paul waxing weary? Is he abandoning this loving community he established? Was he RAPTURED?!?!?!
By the way, hopefully the Tigers can hold on (I love MLB.TV!!) Just saw Sheff’s 499th!!!! COOL!
Thanks b/Bo, I appreciate it. We’ll catch you later, my friend.
(from Comerica Park)
Greg, I did not mean you. You have a great approach. It was a shotgun spray intended for others (who happen to not be chiming in on this post anyway). And yes, it was probably unnecessary (3 hrs sleep sometimes hampers the restraint).
b/Bo,
When have I ever labeled Jeff a “radical leftist?” I have always welcomed both of your analysis and have kept my discussions strictly to the issues. I just feel like your comment here was unnecessary.
Jeff,
I agree wholeheartedly with b/Bo’s second comment. Your arguments are always thought provoking and well reasoned. They always challenge me to think my positions through and for that I appreciate them.
Unfortunately for this discussion, I must let this go because over the next few weeks I will be slammed with other things and I have a feeling that we could go around and around on this issue and still end up in the same place. Thanks for the great discussion and I look forward to reading more of your comments.
Pix, it may be easier to just label you a “radical leftist” – that way your research and thoughtful analysis that led to such provocative arguments are rendered null and void by virtue of the fact that you’ve been labeled.
BTW, I commend you on trying to keep your points factual and gracious – good work, bro.
Here is my response:
GR:”Also, I must ask also what you mean by “imperial action?””
JB: Imperial action is taking things into your own hands event though much of the world was opposed to it. The coalition of the willing was basically Britan. We did not go in there because of economic instability, we went there because of WMD’s, terrorism and mushroom clouds.
GR: I referenced Matt Perman’s blog post on the Desiring God blog on September 19 “Why I Pray For The Economy,”
JB: I read it, however, once again, who’s welfare are we talking about? there are many Iraqi’s displace all over the region of the middle east.
GR: “It is an accepted notion that Saddam had his mind set to control the flow of oil in the Gulf region.”
JB: Here again, we were not told this, neither was the world, the excuse for this war was to rid the world of the evil dictator because we are so humane. We were told at the time that Saddam didn’t have any WMD’s and we needed further investigation from Mohammed Elbaradei. Yet our leaders pushed forward with war. Would the world, would our citizens have signed on if the administration said this was about securing Oil interest because Saddam was thinking of taking over in that region? This is why they had to deceive.
GR: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2)
JB: I am a Ron Paul constitutionalist; however, I find this part so interesting in light of slavery at the time.
GR: Unfortunately, we have fallen prey to a specifically American theology that when we come to Christ, all of our problem will be solved! No more conflict! God has a WONDERFUL PLAN for your life! You can have your best life NOW! What about the Christians in Orissa province being taken from their homes, tortured, and murdered just because of their faith in Christ? Are they living their best life now? I certainly hope not. (By the way, what has the left said about this? Hmm?!)
JB: I agree with you assessment of the church, I am sickened by the lavish expenses that my own church has, yet I see a passing acknowledgement of helping the poor. I want to see the focus of the church on helping others and while the are doing that exposing them to the gospel. I am not sure where the left is in this conversation, other than a call to social justice of which Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren and Jim Wallis speak of.
GR: All of this to say that we have a real distorted view of how we are to live as Christians in this wretched world. Since many of us don’t have the guts to warn even our closest friends and family (myself included) that the wrath of God is revealed to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and that they have no excuse for their rebellion (Romans 1:20), how in the world can we expect them to act righteously? Each and every one of us in our natural state is a dirty, rotten, filthy, wretched sinner and the only hope we have is in the grace and mercy of the Almighty, Infinite, and Perfect God of the Universe. This is the only hope for mankind
JB: Well, I do differ from you on this; I think the browbearting theology does more damage to God than it does good. I used to be on board with you hear but I no longer view God in this Mad state with man. I know we can throw around scripture to back up our claims but ultimately doctrines are often created by cherry picking scripture and running with it. A recent example is Al Mohler and his “full quiver” theology, he takes one scripture in psalms to make the point that we Christians need to strive to have as many kids as God gives up. Not having kids or using birth control does not please God. I strive to love the Lord God with all my heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. I try to share the love of Christ with others not fear others with the Wrath of God. I know this is deep into the theology of Calvinism and reformed theology but I have a hard time serving such a mean God that I feel man cherry picked for a purpose. Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.
JB’s comments not responding to anything: So here are some of the questions, do you think this administration was honest about it claims on the justification for war? If so, why were there no WMD’s found? If it was about economics and the security of the world then why couldn’t they have sold the war on those grounds?
Going further into this war and all the issues around it, what are your thoughts on torture? There is a report out yesterday that Condi Rice admitted in writing that the administration knew and was complicit in the torture of detainees. All the while this president claimed “We don’t torture.” Even though it breaks every wartime law. I know we are talking about the war but this issue goes hand in hand, after all we wouldn’t be torture folks if we weren’t fighting this “war on (the emotion of) terror”
Greg, I am not trying to “get you” with those questions, for me, these were the issues that as I used to support everything Bush did made me pause and say hmmmmmm.
Well, I don’t want to get on other tangents, however I would say that the war has weakened our position in the world, this financial issue is certainly a beast of it’s own. Add up line upon line, sending jobs overseas weakens the labor force because all tariffs have been removed, opening up lines of credit where they shouldn’t be opened so people feel like they have money that they don’t have, printing money to falsely cover deficit spending without cutting elsewhere, having troops worldwide essentially policing the world, all these and many more contribute to our situation. Printing more money, raising inflation weakening the dollar will not help at all, the system is broken they are using bubble gum to fix the dam.
I was wavering on supporting the Ron Paul platform and Chuck Baldwin, this issue only solidifies it for me.
I have your comments copied into word and will add a rebuttal when I get a chance.
BTW, I wanted to post this I thought it is interesting. I pay attention to the conspiracy theories from time to time, I think often times they are way off. They are saying that Bush is planning declaring a financial emergency on this country and calling off the elections. An interesting side note, Troops are being called from Iraq to be stationed in the US in case of Martial Law. The last was reported on Amyu Goodwin’s Democracy Now. I want to make it clear I don’t buy everything but I thought it would be interesting none the less. I personally think if Bush called of the elections there would be a HUGE revolt even among his supporters.
By the way, if this war is bankrupting our government, why is the government working on a plan to bail out the financial markets to the tune of over a trillion dollars? Lack of money is definitely not the issue.
I will be replying to you over the weekend Greg, I am busy at work today.
On another note, have any of you guys been catching the interviews with Palin. Even you staunch supporters of her have to admit, very embarrassing.
BTW, I love all the pub that Ron Paul has been getting over this financial issue, maybe the crazy Dr. is not so crazy. Also, I was pleased to hear he endorsed my man Chuck Baldwin, which my wife likes to say was one week after we put his sign in our front yard. 😉
Here is an interesting editorial regarding success in Iraq
Thank you for conceding the point regarding the term “brainwashed.” Many times I have regretted using too strong a term to describe a situation and it takes a man of character to admit when he has taken a reactionary attitude.
With that being said, I must dispute the way your framed the questions
“…do you think that exchanging blood for Oil is justified? Are you saying that economics is that important that you feel it is OK to wage war on a country? As a Christian. whom your kingdom is not of this world, you support this type of imperial action to secure economically advantageous interests?”
In your question, you appear to equate economics with greed. If this is the case, I wholeheartedly oppose blood for greed and I am not saying that it is OK to wage war on a country for the cause of greed. In my arguments, economics has to do with the general welfare of the citizens of a nation and the opportunities that are available to them. Also, I must ask also what you mean by “imperial action?” We clearly have not taken any land or resources for ourselves and have turned control of the nation back over to the Iraqis and are there now to assist in stabilizing their own economy for both of our mutual benefit.
I want to make to it clear that just because I support the war in Iraq in no way means that I “support every action that a republican administration does.” My support for the war is rooted deeply in over 30 years of searching to harmonize within my philosophy the correlation between what the Bible teaches and how it relates to the real world. It is in the Bible that I strive to base all of my philosophical thought (many times unsuccessfully due to my own sinful nature as a fallen man) and when my own philosophy does not square with Scripture, guess what needs to change? It is also rooted in my experiences in dealing with radicals on the left side of the political spectrum. I have had eggs thrown my way at political rallies, been cussed out because of my beliefs, and have seen that the main objective of many of these radicals is to silence me and those who think like me.
At this point, I want to back up just a little and lay a little more philosophical groundwork in a more broad sense. First, I want to make fully clear that when I speak of economics, I am speaking in terms of economic systems and how they affect the lives of those within them. I referenced Matt Perman’s blog post on the Desiring God blog on September 19 “Why I Pray For The Economy,” which I still highly recommend that you read in full. His first paragraph states,
“I pray for the economy at all times, not just times of crisis, because as Christians we are to wish for and seek the welfare of others. There are few things that have more impact on the welfare of large groups of people, in the physical sense, than the state of the economy. Therefore, I believe that the command to “love your neighbor” implies that we desire, seek, and pray for the welfare of the economy.”
I believe that no other subject gets to the heart of any matter quicker than the subject of economics. The reason for this is found in Matthew 6:21 “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Jesus reiterates this point in verse 24 “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”
As a Christian, and conservative capitalist, I believe that since economics is at the heart of most conflicts, it must be a crucial consideration in the resolution of those conflicts. It is an accepted notion that Saddam had his mind set to control the flow of oil in the Gulf region. If he had secured the control of the flow of oil, he would have had whatever capital he needed to finance his ultimate plan to resurrect the Babylonian Empire. It was his greed and lust for power that this war has averted and now Iraq is on track to become an important player in the world economy.
Second, if we are putting our faith in politicians, governments, or any human being for that matter, to “make the world a better place,” we are just fooling ourselves. As you stated before, Jesus is the Prince of Peace, but that is regarding His spiritual kingdom at this time. He will return to set up His earthly kingdom in the future, but in the meantime, we must be about reaching as many people as possible with the Gospel. This mission is the job of the Church, NOT the government.
Government’s purpose is laid out in the Declaration of Independence, as well as the Constitution. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2) The government is to secure these God given rights for all of it’s citizens. The Constitution further clarifies the purpose of government, “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” The powers of government are foundationally laid within these two documents.
The Church’s purpose is to “preach the Gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15) and be Christ’s ambassadors in this wretched world. (II Corinthians 5:20) We as Americans have had it so easy compared to the rest of the world. This is because our founding fathers knew that our government needed to be established on the solid foundation of the Bible. Unfortunately, we have fallen prey to a specifically American theology that when we come to Christ, all of our problem will be solved! No more conflict! God has a WONDERFUL PLAN for your life! You can have your best life NOW! What about the Christians in Orissa province being taken from their homes, tortured, and murdered just because of their faith in Christ? Are they living their best life now? I certainly hope not. (By the way, what has the left said about this? Hmm?!)
All of this to say that we have a real distorted view of how we are to live as Christians in this wretched world. Since many of us don’t have the guts to warn even our closest friends and family (myself included) that the wrath of God is revealed to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and that they have no excuse for their rebellion (Romans 1:20), how in the world can we expect them to act righteously? Each and every one of us in our natural state is a dirty, rotten, filthy, wretched sinner and the only hope we have is in the grace and mercy of the Almighty, Infinite, and Perfect God of the Universe. This is the only hope for mankind.
“I’ll be responding later (with my son’s football game last night and having to work for a living, I’ll need more time!), but here is some food for thought:
To this point and I recognize that there was some lightheartedness to this comment but this is where I differ.
This type of comment completely ignores the effect that this war has had on the Iraqi people. In war it is inevitable that innocent men, women and children will die and suffer great injuries. How many? I have heard figures of up to 600,000 casualties. What about the severely maimed. What about the effects of the hornets nest that we stirred up with the factions fighting each other. Something of which Dick Chaney himself said was an issue back in 1991 and one of the reason he opposed attacking Bagdad back then. What about the lives of the families who have had to free their homes and live as refugees. BTW, my next door neighbor’s family has had to do this. What about all the wounded soldiers of our own? These numbers don’t just affect single individuals they affect the friends and family of the dead and wounded. Like I said, I know the comment was a half hearted attempt at humor, but it hits to the heart of why I think 1. This war is more wrong then ever, 2. Why I think leaders should NEVER rush and deceive the public into war. Add to that all the war profiteering that has happened and it just turns my stomach. As a Christian I view all humans as made in God’s image no matter their worldview and to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord justify this really troubles me. We should always be about social justice but this war was exactly the opposite of that.
I look forward to the counterpoint. 😉
It’s a good idea to read the blog post I referenced previously as well:
I’ll be responding later (with my son’s football game last night and having to work for a living, I’ll need more time!), but here is some food for thought:
One more thing, you want to see right wing money hungry politics in action? Pay close attention to what is going on right now with the financial situation and look up Naomi Klein on Youtube. It is very clear what is going on and should make left and right wingers very angry. I am a little fired up by the “resolution” to this crisis.
Let me go a little further here is what I personally advocate. I have seen especially in Christian circles the concept where folks attach themselves to people and hold on without criticism. I advocate no longer justifying the actions of any political party just because they have your vote. In fact, if they have your vote we should be holding them more accountable. I think all to often, no you Greg, many Christians think they are suppose to submit to leadership and this means that since the republican party is for our “causes” then we need to submit and trust whatever they say. In fact, my pastor basically said in passing (during communion) that people need to not question the leadership of this country and that GWB was a good Godly man. I almost walked out, it’s this type of tying to a party that is completely unbiblical and uncalled for. It truly is making our kingdom of this world and not of God. This is what eats me to the core with republican politics and the Christian right.
Regarding calling this person brainwashed, I will be the first person to admit that I have a reactionary attitude and maybe using that terminology is a bit harsh. I concede.
OK, let’s hash this out. In the third paragraph you mentioned the bandwagon fallacy of “Bush lied, people died”. I assume that since you seem to support Bush on this war that you do not think that he and his administration lied about the intelligence? Is so, how do you account for all the reports of cherry picked intelligence and blatant misinformation given during that time? Here are a few examples:
Bush mentioned in his 2003 state of the union address that Saddam was 6 months away from developing WMD’s according to the NIEA. However, when the media looked into it and called the NIEA they found that this report was from 1991, he was called out on his and basically ignored the discrepancy.
Here is another, he also mentioned in the 20003 SOU address that it was confirmed that Saddam had purchased yellow cake uranium from Niger. However, when Joe Wilson went to Niger to investigate this claim he found that the documents were forged. He brought this information to the administration and it was ignored. Add to that when he went public with it his CIA operative wife’s identity was revealed. Do you think the administration wanted to hide something? Those are just 2 examples, we could talk about them lying about tying Saddam to the 9/11 terrorist even though he hated and fought religious extremist, but to me is shows clearly they wanted to go to war no matter what. To me as a Christian, war is something that hurts everyone involved and should only be done when it is a last resort, these two incidences would indicate an opposite motive to me.
In the 4th and 5th paragraph, you mentioned that based on economics and the need for free flowing Oil is important to maintaining security and a stable economy. I am going to call you out on this my brother, do you think that exchanging blood for Oil is justified? Are you saying that economics is that important that you feel it is OK to wage war on a country. As a Christian. whom your kingdom is not of this world, you support this type of imperial action to secure economically advantageous interests?
My comment about Darfur is the idea that we were there to liberate the Iraqis from this oppressive dictator. I am not advocating war at all unless it is the last resort but we have to stop looking at ourselves as the “city on a hill” when our leaders use false intelligence, cherry picked intelligence, fear monger and deceive the public into supporting something that could have been negotiated further.
I am not a Quaker or a Mennonite, I think there is a place for war, I think in order to defend your national security you need to fight wars. However, this should only be done as a last resort; look objectively at this and one begins to realize this was not done. Leaders shouldn’t have to dupe the public to go to war; the public should be pushing the leaders to do it if the threat is that grave. To say that the flow of Oil is a reason to go to war is a hard pill for me to swallow. Which when you look at the close ties that the right wing has with big Oil you then start to ask more cynical questions about the motives. I had a friend ask me if the Iraq war was about Oil then why are we not paying less for Oil; I respond look at the profits of the Oil companies and ask the same question. Shock and Awe, the more I study politics the more I despise the republican party(I have voted GOP for 17years now) they care about big business only, add to that the connection to the Christian right and it makes my stomach turn. Greg I know you are a reasonable person and I would encourage you to look into an author named John W. Dean. He is an old time conservative who has a lot to say about how the NeoConservatives have hijacked the party and are way off base. He has 3 books on the topic, you might be able to get them in audio form from the library, something I love to do is listen to the books since it is hard to find time to sit down and read with all other life’s distractions. John Dean’s books really helped my understanding of this administration and its tactics.
Hey Jeff,
“A Sovereign God will still be in control even in an Obama administration.”
This is absolutely one point we agree on, my friend. If He wants it to happen, it will. the consequences are also His will and just maybe they are a sign that He means to draw the True Converts closer to Himself through persecution and through the same means weed out all of the false converts. I’m glad we at least have this one point of common ground.
By the way, I’ll be happy to further discuss any issue you please in a loving and civil manner. This is the most productive form of debate as far as I am concerned. Besides, it challenges me to fully think trough all of my positions and in the end, it’s making me rely more and more on the Lord for His insight, especially in the way I respond! Take care.
Ok, I am going to try and recreate the comments I attempted to post last week with my thoughts on this matter. I guess that the system just didn’t take them and I will not include any URLs in this comment. Thanks for your patience.
First of all, the term “brainwashed” is WAY too strong with regards to this man’s service to his country and his opinion of which candidate to support in this election. He, more than any of us who never served in the military, has earned his right and by the sacrifice of all like him who gave their lives in honor have secured the same rights for all of us here at home. You may not agree with him, but you cannot deny that his service is honorable and deserves our highest respect, regardless of our opinions of the merits of this war.
Speaking of which, the reasons for or against the war in Iraq are rarely presented in a comprehensive manner. What I mean is that most of the time certain points are thrown out and accepted as fact without any verification or foundation given. I see it many times as the bandwagon fallacy because platitudes such as “Bush lied, people died” appeal much more to the emotions rather than the intellect. The merits of that argument are rarely seen or given historic significance.
Let’s address one point that has been hammered ad nauseum. Many on the left have said that this war was fought only for oil. I agree that this war was fought partially for oil, but with a different motivating factor. Profit is the factor most hammered by these proponents. Personally, I have no problem with that being one of the motivating factors, but that’s another discussion. In studying the world economy, we must come to the conclusion that oil is the fuel of economic freedom. With the emergence of China and India as major players in the world economy, this fact becomes clearer and more urgent than ever. Before we will change to a different fuel to drive our trucks, cars, planes, and ships, the demand for oil is going to increase and this will not change in the immediate future.
Since the free flow of oil is essential to the world’s economy, it is of utmost importance to our own economy (as well as safety) that the current supply lines are maintained until new sources of oil, and eventually alternative fuels, be explored and developed. Saddam Hussein was a threat to the region beginning in his invasion the oil-rich sovereign nation of Kuwait in 1990, leading all the way up to his capture on December 15, 2003. If he or another despotic dictator seized control of the flow of oil, he would then have incredible power over the rest of the world. Matt Perman has a fabulous post on the Desiring God blog on why we should pray for the economy (If you want the URL, email me and I’ll send it to you since I promised no URLs in this comment). Economics plays a huge role in people’s actions. Christ Himself said that where your treasure is, there will be your heart also (Matthew 6:21, Luke 12:34) and that you cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13).
The next point is that we went into Iraq due to the threat of weapons of mass destruction and since we found none, the war is unjust. As I previously stated, it was Saddam Hussein that attacked an oil-rich sovereign nation in order to control more of the Middle East’s vast oil resources back in 1990. Because of the strategic importance of the Kuwaiti oil resources, the US acted to drive Saddam out of Kuwait with a swift and effective offensive in Desert Storm. After the hostilities ceased, Saddam over the course of 12 years and 16 UN resolutions was to allow weapons inspectors’ unfettered access to what they needed to see in order to determine the existence of WMDs. UN Resolution 1441 specifically gave the US the go ahead to invade Iraq if Saddam refused to comply. Based on our intelligence, as well as worldwide intelligence (a fact that many on the side against the war conveniently leave out), we determined that the risk of the possibility of Saddam having WMDs was a risk that had to be dealt with.
Another point garnered by opponents of the war is the question of “Why Iraq and not Darfur?” It is obvious that if the flow of oil were to be disrupted, it would have devastating consequences on the world economy; therefore the war in Iraq has a direct bearing on our national interests. Darfur, while shocking and brutal, has less of a bearing. Are you suggesting that we go to war with the Sudan? If not, the “Why Iraq and not Darfur” question is a red herring.
The bottom line for me regarding the war in Iraq is that national security should be one of the top issues with which we should be concerned. I am amazed when I learn more about our founding fathers and the system of government they created. The fact that we are free gives us unique opportunities to openly speak our philosophies. Whether you are on the left or the right, soldiers throughout our history gave their blood in order that we can have these rights. Agree or disagree with the war, they still deserve our respect and gratitude.
Jeff,
Thank you again for the compliment. I’ve had this problem before when the WordPress did not post the comment and I emailed Paul to release it. Usually I write my comments in a text editor and then cut and paste, but last night I wrote it directly on the webpage (DUH) and I don’t have a copy of it. Unfortunately, I don’t have any more time tonight (we’re going to the airport to meet my brother and sister-in-law and their new adopted daughter YAY!!!). I do look forward to discussing this with you further.
Greg,
I welcome your reasoned response. BTW, sometimes URL’s just don’t come through and I don’t think it is a requirement of Paul to release it. You may want to modify the URL and make aware of the modification.
I want to make the point also that I am not a pacifist. But man, i don’t know how any Christian who technically is a follower of Jesus, remember the prince of PEACE? can be for a war that was do blatantly sold to the American public. War is an ugly thing; it should only be fought under the most dyer of circumstances. Whenever I bring this topic up on this blog I almost never get a rebuttal, the only thing I can conclude that that most feel the way I do but support the administrations stance on it because this is what most good Christians are supposed to do. Look, I understand, I initially supported the war, I voted for GWB twice, however, I look back and regret both stances. I have repented and learn from my mistakes. I would love to hash this out with those on this board that are in support of this war. Let’s talk about WMD’s, let’s talk about Niger, Yellow cake uranium/Joe Wilson/ Valarie Plame, Let’s talk fear mongering and mushroom clouds, Let’s talk Blackwater it’s close ties to the Christian right and war profiteering, let’s talk KBR and Halliburton.
Guys, I don’t mean to sound arrogant or anti patriotic here, but there is something wrong when the secularist have a louder voice the Christians on social justice matters. Most of it goes back to being politically affiliated with a certain party. I am very passionate about this for a number of reasons. As Bob has indicated it is bankrupting our economy. In every war it is inevitable that innocent lives will be harmed, these are all God’s children folks no matter what worldview they have, God’s so loved the WORLD, not just Christians in America. When our leaders take it lightly and we don’t hold them accountable then we share in the injustice.
We need to come back and realize what war is all about and hold our leaders feet to the fire when they make mistake both Democrat and Republican. I would love to have a loving discussion on these matters with those of you who supported Bush and still support him and McCain on these matters. BTW, Chuck Baldwin is very much against this war and is one of the reasons why voting principle over pragmaticism is going to be easy for me this year. A Sovereign God will still be in control even in an Obama administration.
b/Bo,
I understand that and I made a comment to this thread last night (that had a URL in the comment and the system did not post it so i am waiting for Paul to release it – He wasn’t up in the middle of the night – I guess one of us has to sleep!:D) that goes into more detail regarding our reasons for the war in Iraq. I will wait to comment any further until that comment posts. Talk with you then!
Greg, once again I’m not arguing “for” Obama, I’m merely responding “against” the sentimental, off-the-mark video.
Obama wants the war in Iraq it end, but only on his timetable.
I personally know people who have chosen to serve in the military and I deeply respect their courage to go into harm’s way for the sake of others. I pray for their safety.
However, we didn’t go over to Iraq to make them better off or to bring democracy to them or to end Saddam’s tyranny – we went over there supposedly because of the threat of weapons of mass destruction and the threat of terror against us. That turned out to be a crock of skubalon, and it appears that there was intent to deceive the American people about it.
Therefore, I feel bad for the young man who implicitly made such a sacrifice, and I lay the blame for that at the feet of the current administration.
I don’t know if the Iraqis are “better off” now or not and that was never our job in the first place, that was Saddam’s job. I do know that we’re out of billions and billions of dollars spent to make them (as opposed to America) “better off” while we go trillions of dollars in debt. That doesn’t make sense to me, regardless of the sentimental music playing at the end of the video (which reminded me suspiciously of a Ray Boltz tune…)
I wish I had a solution, but “if the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?”. I’m afraid this nation is finally reaping what it has sown for many years, and I fear that it’s going down. However, my responsibility as a follower of Jesus remains the same regardless of the economy, administration, or whatever, and I pray to endure to the end.
I wonder if the military service brainwashed this guy. For every 1 of these guys there are many dead and wounded soldiers and family that would not have the same opinion. The Iraqi war was based on lies and has continued because of war profiteers and Oil interests. The folks in Darfur have suffered many times more than the Iraqis were under Saddam. Why Iraq and not Darfur? Oil War is something that our leaders should consider as a last resort, the only option, a thing that a good leader should never want to do. This was not this case with this administration and it’s many false intelligence reports and deceptive selling to the media. We were scared as a nation after 9/11 and bought it hook, line a sinker.
The thought that the christian community is in support of war is something that I had a hard time with when it happened and now that I step back and realize that I don’t have to support every action that a republican administration does, just blows my mind.
Since Palin was never in Congress, it’s hard to say. I’m just glad my Congressman voted no on it today (I’m in Dick Army’s old district), even though both of my Senators lost their minds and voted for it.
The Couric interview was difficult. But I have also seen how the media tries to destroy anyone who does not toe their line and they are not above editing an interview to make someone look bad (LOTS of ways to do that!)
I’m puzzled though. Why so interested in Palin? You’ve made your decision for Baldwin. Does it really matter? (I’m sorry. Just keeping the fires hot!) 😀 In the famous words of Bugs Bunny (a personal hero of mine!) “Ain’t I a stinka'”
The question is, how would Palin vote? I am sure she would read all the newspapers and make a definitive clear cut, well thought-out, never capitulated decision on the matter.
Sorry bro but I still can’t get over those Couric interviews. BRUTAL
Jeff,
Just so you know, I am livid regarding John McCain’s yes vote to the bailout bill on Wednesday. If it weren’t for the specter known as Obama, I might have joined you in voting for a third party candidate (but it probably would have been Alan Keyes.) This is the biggest pile of pork disguised as a bailout that I have ever seen!
Ok, I give. I will take the time and answer your questions. (I told you I was a glutton for punishment!) Here we go!
GR:”Also, I must ask also what you mean by “imperial action?””
JB: Imperial action is taking things into your own hands event though much of the world was opposed to it. The coalition of the willing was basically Britain. We did not go in there because of economic instability, we went there because of WMD’s, terrorism and mushroom clouds.
GR (Response): The reason I asked is because I want our definitions to be clear. Merriam-Webster defines “imperial” as an adjective meaning, “of, relating to, befitting, or suggestive of an empire or an emperor.” This is the definition I have in mind when the term “imperial action” comes up. As I have discussed in previous comments, we have not seized Iraq for any purpose other than to turn it back over to the Iraqi people, which is steadily taking place. Therefore, by definition, our action cannot be considered “imperial.”
GR: I referenced Matt Perman’s blog post on the Desiring God blog on September 19 “Why I Pray For The Economy,”
JB: I read it, however, once again, who’s welfare are we talking about? there are many Iraqi’s displace all over the region of the middle east.
GR (Response): I am referring specifically to anyone who is influenced by a particular economy. Obviously, in any conflict there will be people displaced, but for this particular question, I am referring strictly to economic conditions.
GR: “It is an accepted notion that Saddam had his mind set to control the flow of oil in the Gulf region.”
JB: Here again, we were not told this, neither was the world, the excuse for this war was to rid the world of the evil dictator because we are so humane. We were told at the time that Saddam didn’t have any WMD’s and we needed further investigation from Mohammed Elbaradei. Yet our leaders pushed forward with war. Would the world, would our citizens have signed on if the administration said this was about securing Oil interest because Saddam was thinking of taking over in that region? This is why they had to deceive.
GR (Response): Why the administration did not press this issue is not the issue on the table. I am merely enumerating the reasons why I supported the war and still support the war. Even Osama Bin Laden himself said that the center of terrorism is Iraq, therefore, securing the region is of utmost importance in defeating terrorism.
One more point, unless we have been there personally, none of us can verify the progress of the war without some level of faith in what we are being told. It stands to reason that the best source to verify in importance of this mission should come from the troops themselves. On July 4th of this year, Baghdad witnessed the largest reenlistment ceremony in our history (this can be verified on snopes.com.) These are people who know the situation first hand and are not coerced into serving their country. Doesn’t it stand to reason that if these soldiers are reenlisting at a record pace that our mission is just?
GR: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2)
JB: I am a Ron Paul constitutionalist; however, I find this part so interesting in light of slavery at the time.
GR (Response): I too am a constitutionalist, but do have some disagreement with Congressman Paul. I must call you on the slavery reference my friend. Slavery has not been an issue in this country since January 1, 1863. It is another red herring and is out of place in this particular discussion and should be discussed on its own merit at another time.
GR: Unfortunately, we have fallen prey to a specifically American theology that when we come to Christ, all of our problem will be solved! No more conflict! God has a WONDERFUL PLAN for your life! You can have your best life NOW! What about the Christians in Orissa province being taken from their homes, tortured, and murdered just because of their faith in Christ? Are they living their best life now? I certainly hope not. (By the way, what has the left said about this? Hmm?!)
JB: I agree with you assessment of the church, I am sickened by the lavish expenses that my own church has, yet I see a passing acknowledgement of helping the poor. I want to see the focus of the church on helping others and while the are doing that exposing them to the gospel. I am not sure where the left is in this conversation, other than a call to social justice of which Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren and Jim Wallis speak of.
GR (Response): I, like you, am also sickened by the lavish expenses that many churches justify in the name of evangelism that have absolutely nothing to do with reaching people for Christ. There is nothing wrong with TV and radio ministries, community outreach programs, food pantries, etc. but when the “ministry” becomes the focus, we have lost sight of the reason that Christ left us here, which is found in Mark 16:15 “Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.” What is the Gospel? Is it feeding the poor? Is it finding a cure for AIDS? Is it fighting against social injustice (whatever that means – it’s such a loaded term)? While these are things every one of us should be involved with to a certain extent, THEY ARE NOT THE GOSPEL! (Please pardon the shouting. I tend to get just a little worked up over this.) This is a main reason why the emergent church leaders like Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren, Jim Wallis, Rob Bell, Donald Miller, Doug Padgitt, Greg Boyd, and Joel Hunter all drive me out of my mind. They all seem to be ignoring the eternal consequences of their “kingdom” theology. “What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? And what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Mark 8:36-37) It is the souls of men that should be most precious to us. I can give a man a meal that he does need, but if I do not share the Gospel with him, I basically send him to Hell with a full stomach! He is no better for having met me and in fact, I have made his situation worse!
GR: All of this to say that we have a real distorted view of how we are to live as Christians in this wretched world. Since many of us don’t have the guts to warn even our closest friends and family (myself included) that the wrath of God is revealed to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and that they have no excuse for their rebellion (Romans 1:20), how in the world can we expect them to act righteously? Each and every one of us in our natural state is a dirty, rotten, filthy, wretched sinner and the only hope we have is in the grace and mercy of the Almighty, Infinite, and Perfect God of the Universe. This is the only hope for mankind
JB: Well, I do differ from you on this; I think the browbearting theology does more damage to God than it does good. I used to be on board with you hear but I no longer view God in this Mad state with man. I know we can throw around scripture to back up our claims but ultimately doctrines are often created by cherry picking scripture and running with it. A recent example is Al Mohler and his “full quiver” theology, he takes one scripture in psalms to make the point that we Christians need to strive to have as many kids as God gives up. Not having kids or using birth control does not please God. I strive to love the Lord God with all my heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. I try to share the love of Christ with others not fear others with the Wrath of God. I know this is deep into the theology of Calvinism and reformed theology but I have a hard time serving such a mean God that I feel man cherry picked for a purpose. Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.
GR (Response): Get ready. This is a long one.
If I were to tell you “I have great news for you. Someone just paid a $1000 speeding fine on your behalf,” have I really told you good news? Not if you think you haven’t got a $1000 speeding fine. You might actually get angry at me for telling you this. Now, if I told you “This morning you were clocked by the police going 75 miles an hour through a zone set aside for a blind children’s convention. Despite clearly marked signs throughout the area, you ignored the warning and still broke the law.” After realizing that you clearly violated the law and that you are in danger of justice, I then tell you, “But I have great news for you. Someone you don’t even know has come forward and paid the $1000 fine on your behalf.” Now you understand what great news this really is.
Psalm 19:7a tells us “The Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.” In Romans 7:7, Paul tells us “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.“ The law is also referred to as a mirror and a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.
Let’s analyze one situation and see how Christ Himself handled an encounter with someone who seem to actually be seeking Him out. The story of the rich young ruler is found in Mark 10:17-27
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Notice that Jesus never once told him that He had a wonderful plan for his life if he would just follow Him. He first asked him why did the young man call Him good since there is none that is good but God. Then He went straight to the law and asked the young man if he had kept specific commandments and the response was “I have kept these from my youth.”
It is then that the Lord addressed the root of this young man’s worldview. He asked him to sell all that he had and give it to the poor and then follow Him. The young man went away sorrowful because he had great riches and obviously he loved them more than the God who gave him life itself. It is also striking that Jesus did not run after him to try and persuade him to repent. All we can hope for this young man is that the since the seed of the Gospel was planted, hopefully one day it took root in a heart of good soil and that man is in the presence of the Lord today.
The bottom line of my sharing this passage is this question. Was Jesus “browbeating” this young man? Certainly not! But doesn’t it stand to reason that if Christ commanded us to “preach the Gospel to every creature,” shouldn’t we follow His own example on how to do it?
Another question is do you really think our actions do damage to God? I’m sorry, my friend, but even if you are not a Calvinist, doesn’t this lower the view of God? God is the Almighty Sovereign Creator of the universe. The Bible tells us that by Him does all things consist (Colossians 1:17) which says to me that God’s not real worried about anything and that everything is under His command. God is the one who makes the way straight and nothing we do can circumvent His will and plan.
You bring up a reference to Al Moehler regarding the “quiver-full” passage in Proverbs. Honestly, this has nothing to do with this discussion and is another red herring. I realize you are trying to give an example of “cherry-picking,” but I would need a lot more detail before I could determine if that is the case.
I also find this quote of yours intriguing. “I strive to love the Lord God with all my heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. I try to share the love of Christ with others not fear others with the Wrath of God. I know this is deep into the theology of Calvinism and reformed theology but I have a hard time serving such a mean God that I feel man cherry picked for a purpose. Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.” I am not questioning your love of God. However, I do want you to daily question yourself and seek Him with all of your heart. But if we make a god based on our own visions of who WE want God to be, that is nothing short of idolatry and is a violation of the second commandment. I would encourage you to think through who God truly is and why He is righteous in His anger against Man. When Adam sinned, did God have the right to cast him into Hell immediately? Of course He did. But He didn’t. That fact alone is enough to praise Him. If He had decided that Man was not worth saving, would He have been righteous? Of course. God is the standard bearer and if we do not measure up to the standard, which is sinless perfection, we deserve Hell. But God did not do that. He made the way of salvation and has given us the job of telling every single person we come in contact with that first of all, they have violated God’s law and deserve the punishment of Hell and when the law has fulfilled it’s purpose of showing us the exceeding sinfulness of sin, then we must let them know that God Himself made the way of redemption possible and that in and of ourselves, we are totally unable to have anything whatsoever to do with our own salvation.
I need to call you on this particular line. “Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.” What exactly did you mean? Do you honestly think that Calvinist are trying to control people? As far as what happens to us, how in the world can we control others and why is that beneficial to us? Certainly there are cults out there who attempt to control people and “keep them in line,” so are you calling us members of a cult?
I have taken the most time on this issue because it is the one issue that chages the hearts of men. We can go around and around about the war and it won’t make a difference. But the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I have been so convicted of this over the last six months and am now very involved in sharing my faith because there is only a certain amount of time left to do it.
JB’s comments not responding to anything: So here are some of the questions, do you think this administration was honest about it claims on the justification for war? If so, why were there no WMD’s found? If it was about economics and the security of the world then why couldn’t they have sold the war on those grounds? Going further into this war and all the issues around it, what are your thoughts on torture? There is a report out yesterday that Condi Rice admitted in writing that the administration knew and was complicit in the torture of detainees. All the while this president claimed “We don’t torture.” Even though it breaks every wartime law. I know we are talking about the war but this issue goes hand in hand, after all we wouldn’t be torture folks if we weren’t fighting this “war on (the emotion of) terror”
Greg, I am not trying to “get you” with those questions, for me, these were the issues that as I used to support everything Bush did made me pause and say hmmmmmm.
GR (Response): I think to better understand your opposition to the war, I need some clarification. You have said that you are not against war but you do not feel that this war is justified. Could you discuss a war that you do think was just and compare it to this war and enumerate the differences? I think that you will find that in every war, there are those who on philosophical grounds honestly opposed it and you will find that there are many on both sides in each war that are not always totally honest or objective.
I know you have a lot of questions and I have done what I can at this point to answer them. Please understand that my purpose here is to give an answer to legitimate questions, but at some point I have to ask, will I truly change someone’s mind in this discussion? The honest answer is of course not. Only God can change another’s mind. So I am going to ask these final questions rhetorically, because the answers do not affect me and my worldview, but I do hope that they are taken in the spirit in which they are meant. When was the last time you read your Bible, just to spend time with your Lord? This morning, last week, six months ago? What about a time of prayer where you don’t ask anything from God but you used use it as a time to praise Him? When was the last time you purposely shared your faith with anyone? Six months ago, I did not like the answers to these questions in my own life. I certainly am not perfect, but God is changing my heart and I am growing in mercy and compassion for all that I come in contact with. I certainly pray that it is the same for you. Thank you for the exchanges, Jeff. You are a thoughtful and genuine person. I wish you Godspeed in you pursuit of Him. May you find Him and may you became the beacon He has called all of His true children to be.
Don’t you have your own blog, Jeff? Thought you could use a shameless plug! 😀
“many who had something of value to say have not been participating lately, thats too bad”
The content has been rather slim from Mr. Edwards as we are still discussing something that was posted on 9-18.
I want to talk Palin…..hahaha This is where Paul tells me to get my own blog. HAHA 😉
Hello, new to responding here but a long time reader.
Not too long ago one of the regulars was rather ill spirited and criticized one of your contributors for being “voluminous”. As I read on I have to conclude that the intent of that particular post was personal rather than editorial. I feel much better now. Thanks
I will continue to follow as I find all of these entries thought provoking. For what its worth, many who had something of value to say have not been participating lately, thats too bad. Mike, Ben, Nancy, Don, and numerous others, your thoughts were stimulating. Thank you Paul for your labor in this endeavor.
“Besides, the Democrats also had access to the same intel as the Republicans and enough of them voted to invade.”
A point of clarification is needed on a statement like that, the authorized it under certain preconditions, of which the administration needed to lie about to go to war. Yellow cake uranium, remember that?
“Islamic jihad that has been going on for the last 1500 years. We did nothing to spark this hatred because the militant Islamist hate Christians, Jews and anyone who does not agree with their religion of hate.”
I understand this worldview, we Christians and Jews are good and those Islamic terrorist are bad. You do understand that during the crusades we Christians did a lot of awful things to the turks(as they were called). We should never look at this as a Good v Evil thing, there is plenty of evil in our history and even in our present day.
“The unfortunate situation we have found ourselves in today is that we have an unadulterated, unabashed (at least by his associations and his own autobiographies) Socialist as the nominee of one of the only two major political parties with a prayer of winning the White House. This is too risky a scenario to not vote for a candidate that at least has the chance of defeating him.”
It is statements like this and mindsets like this that make you and folks like you perfect for the political process. I hope that you realize that fear is what is motivating you. You fear the idea of a socialist running the country, this is how many things work out for Christians fear is at the heart of most things that motivate most people and this is amplified in Christian circles. The fear of Hell is the most motivating factor and at the heart of many Christian doctrines.
Greg, I know you don’t feel that the administration did anything deceiving to get us into this war and I would think that at all costs you would doubt anything that is put before you as factual. This would completely change your worldview; it would start to put into question the leaders of our faith who were in lock step with the president and his neocons buds in Washington. I went through that about 2 years ago, it was hard and at time gut wrenching. Many of the folks that I held in very high esteem were being exposed as frauds and politicians more than Christ followers. We Christian need to realize that the republican party is corrupt, just like the democratic party. They use abortion and gay rights as wedge issues to keep one of the largest voting bloc coming back to the voting booths. Then once they get in office it is all big business and corporate greed. I no longer let fear and deception determine my vote, I vote with principle, just like to corrupt Christian leaders in the republican party told me to do all these years.
I urge you to take off you right wing hat and examine the facts. Look at claims made back then. IE, Bush made a statement that Saddam was 6 months away from producing WMD’s. The “liberal” NYT’s called the source of the claim, they stated it was not new intelligence it was a report from 1991. When Bush was called to the carpet on it did he correct it, no, he kept on the war path. All this stuff can be looked up and verify. Truth does still exist, BTW, there are many other example of this type of stuff. If you, as you stated “I do not see where this administration actually set out to deceive anyone regarding the invasion of Iraq” then research it objectively.
Greg, you seem like a great guy I am only asking that you consider all sources when researching stuff. If you get reports and stuff from right wing neocons then you are going to get their slant, like all things the truth usually falls in the middle.
Some books on this topic:
The greatest story over sold by liberal Frank Rich
Conservatives without conscience by conservative John W Dean.
BTW, anyone want to talk Sarah Palin? Thoughts on her recent interviews with those awful liberals Charlie Gibson and Katie Couric? What about the debate tonight? The conservatives are so afraid of this that they are crying fowl on the moderator even though it was clear when they sign off that she was writing this book. Let’s talk………
Jeff,
I just happened to come across that article again and wanted to get your take. I have thought some more about this (OK I’m a glutton for punishment!) and I am just not convinced that after 16 UN resolutions over the course of 12 years that we “rushed” into this war, especially considering Saddam’s defiance. Besides, the Democrats also had access to the same intel as the Republicans and enough of them voted to invade.
Personally, I laid out my case previously and it is based on factors that I observed over the last 25 years since the Iranian hostage crisis and the fact of militant Islamic jihad that has been going on for the last 1500 years. We did nothing to spark this hatred because the militant Islamist hate Christians, Jews and anyone who does not agree with their religion of hate.
I do however agree with you that blind faith in a particular party is never a good thing because if any 2 people agree on everything, 1 of them is unnecessary! But seriously, it takes no intelligence to blindly follow anyone 100% of the time. We all need to weigh the important issues within the framework of scripture (the infallible, inerrant, Holy Word of God) and then vote accordingly. You have decided to vote for Chuck Baldwin and on the surface, I have no problem with that. The unfortunate situation we have found ourselves in today is that we have an unadulterated, unabashed (at least by his associations and his own autobiographies) Socialist as the nominee of one of the only two major political parties with a prayer of winning the White House. This is too risky a scenario to not vote for a candidate that at least has the chance of defeating him.
I know you have had problems with President Bush. My problem is that he is a Republican before he is a conservative and because of his “new-tone” politics, Republicans have an identity problem. Thankfully we do have guys like Mike Pence that are truly conservative and it’s these guys that have served us well over the last 2 weeks (but that’s another issue altogether!)
To answer your last question, I do not see where this administration actually set out to deceive anyone regarding the invasion of Iraq. At the worst, it was based on faulty intel, but the premise was sound and an acceptable time frame was taken to attempt more diplomatic solutions to solve the problems. When the diplomatic solutions failed, that was when the invasion began. I know you don’t agree, but I have not been convinced to the contrary.
By the way, this is kind of off the cuff and I know I’ve left out some of your questions, but I’ve got to get back to work. Thanks for listening.
Greg,
I thought you were conceding on this conversation? If not, will you find the time to answer the questions that I posed in post 24?
Regarding this article, I am fully aware of that report, however, as one of the comments posted below it stated and it was right. These were degrated weapons that WE sold them back in the 80’s. I am not debating that they didn’t have them at one point, we know we did because we sold them to Saddam. The question was how was it sold to the public. The administration used fear mongering tactics to sell this war. They used 911, smoking gun, mushroom cloud etc, etc to get public buy in, it worked. As I have stated Greg, the issue is not with war, I am for it ONLY when all other options have been exhausted and there is nothing left to do. I would really like to hear it from someone who supports this war that this was done. Or if you feel that exhausting every option is not a bad thing. If you feel that preemptive war is OK then please by all means justify it. I hope in the process you can take off the right v left mindset and think what is right and just in the eyes of God. If our leaders decieved to start a war is that OK?
Hey Jeff,
I just came across this piece and wanted your opinion on it:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/06/saddams_wmd_discovery_and_deni.html
I look forward to your take.
Jeff,
Thanks for understanding about the time issue. I would enjoy discussing this more at a later time because you do raise valid issues that should be thoughtfully addressed. Maybe we can do that in the future.
B/Bo…sometimes comment just incites the natives…they appear to be riled-up already…*: )
Greg,
I understand you not being able to continue, however, I was really hoping you could have answered the last questions that I posed because I think an honest answer from Christians would reveal that there are some discrepancies with supporting the actions in Iraq. However, you are right it probably would have gone around and around.
On to Campaign stuff:
I have to tell you what I have seen from the conservative movement and this campaign is truly surreal. On Thursday all the pundits on the right were talking how heroic McCain was for riding on his white horse to Washington to solve our issues. On Friday conservatives and liberals are telling him it might be best if he just stay out. Add to that the 3 interviews with Sarah Palin and now there are writers on Townhall.com saying maybe she needs to do what is best for her country and family and just bow out. Maybe the conspiracy theory that I wrote about above is the only chance that conservatives have of maintaining power. Who knows????
What, no running commentary blog posts from the debates? Is Paul waxing weary? Is he abandoning this loving community he established? Was he RAPTURED?!?!?!
By the way, hopefully the Tigers can hold on (I love MLB.TV!!) Just saw Sheff’s 499th!!!! COOL!
Thanks b/Bo, I appreciate it. We’ll catch you later, my friend.
(from Comerica Park)
Greg, I did not mean you. You have a great approach. It was a shotgun spray intended for others (who happen to not be chiming in on this post anyway). And yes, it was probably unnecessary (3 hrs sleep sometimes hampers the restraint).
b/Bo,
When have I ever labeled Jeff a “radical leftist?” I have always welcomed both of your analysis and have kept my discussions strictly to the issues. I just feel like your comment here was unnecessary.
Jeff,
I agree wholeheartedly with b/Bo’s second comment. Your arguments are always thought provoking and well reasoned. They always challenge me to think my positions through and for that I appreciate them.
Unfortunately for this discussion, I must let this go because over the next few weeks I will be slammed with other things and I have a feeling that we could go around and around on this issue and still end up in the same place. Thanks for the great discussion and I look forward to reading more of your comments.
Pix, it may be easier to just label you a “radical leftist” – that way your research and thoughtful analysis that led to such provocative arguments are rendered null and void by virtue of the fact that you’ve been labeled.
BTW, I commend you on trying to keep your points factual and gracious – good work, bro.
Here is my response:
GR:”Also, I must ask also what you mean by “imperial action?””
JB: Imperial action is taking things into your own hands event though much of the world was opposed to it. The coalition of the willing was basically Britan. We did not go in there because of economic instability, we went there because of WMD’s, terrorism and mushroom clouds.
GR: I referenced Matt Perman’s blog post on the Desiring God blog on September 19 “Why I Pray For The Economy,”
JB: I read it, however, once again, who’s welfare are we talking about? there are many Iraqi’s displace all over the region of the middle east.
GR: “It is an accepted notion that Saddam had his mind set to control the flow of oil in the Gulf region.”
JB: Here again, we were not told this, neither was the world, the excuse for this war was to rid the world of the evil dictator because we are so humane. We were told at the time that Saddam didn’t have any WMD’s and we needed further investigation from Mohammed Elbaradei. Yet our leaders pushed forward with war. Would the world, would our citizens have signed on if the administration said this was about securing Oil interest because Saddam was thinking of taking over in that region? This is why they had to deceive.
GR: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2)
JB: I am a Ron Paul constitutionalist; however, I find this part so interesting in light of slavery at the time.
GR: Unfortunately, we have fallen prey to a specifically American theology that when we come to Christ, all of our problem will be solved! No more conflict! God has a WONDERFUL PLAN for your life! You can have your best life NOW! What about the Christians in Orissa province being taken from their homes, tortured, and murdered just because of their faith in Christ? Are they living their best life now? I certainly hope not. (By the way, what has the left said about this? Hmm?!)
JB: I agree with you assessment of the church, I am sickened by the lavish expenses that my own church has, yet I see a passing acknowledgement of helping the poor. I want to see the focus of the church on helping others and while the are doing that exposing them to the gospel. I am not sure where the left is in this conversation, other than a call to social justice of which Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren and Jim Wallis speak of.
GR: All of this to say that we have a real distorted view of how we are to live as Christians in this wretched world. Since many of us don’t have the guts to warn even our closest friends and family (myself included) that the wrath of God is revealed to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and that they have no excuse for their rebellion (Romans 1:20), how in the world can we expect them to act righteously? Each and every one of us in our natural state is a dirty, rotten, filthy, wretched sinner and the only hope we have is in the grace and mercy of the Almighty, Infinite, and Perfect God of the Universe. This is the only hope for mankind
JB: Well, I do differ from you on this; I think the browbearting theology does more damage to God than it does good. I used to be on board with you hear but I no longer view God in this Mad state with man. I know we can throw around scripture to back up our claims but ultimately doctrines are often created by cherry picking scripture and running with it. A recent example is Al Mohler and his “full quiver” theology, he takes one scripture in psalms to make the point that we Christians need to strive to have as many kids as God gives up. Not having kids or using birth control does not please God. I strive to love the Lord God with all my heart soul mind and strength and my neighbor as myself. I try to share the love of Christ with others not fear others with the Wrath of God. I know this is deep into the theology of Calvinism and reformed theology but I have a hard time serving such a mean God that I feel man cherry picked for a purpose. Telling your people how awful they are really helps in keeping them in line.
JB’s comments not responding to anything: So here are some of the questions, do you think this administration was honest about it claims on the justification for war? If so, why were there no WMD’s found? If it was about economics and the security of the world then why couldn’t they have sold the war on those grounds?
Going further into this war and all the issues around it, what are your thoughts on torture? There is a report out yesterday that Condi Rice admitted in writing that the administration knew and was complicit in the torture of detainees. All the while this president claimed “We don’t torture.” Even though it breaks every wartime law. I know we are talking about the war but this issue goes hand in hand, after all we wouldn’t be torture folks if we weren’t fighting this “war on (the emotion of) terror”
Greg, I am not trying to “get you” with those questions, for me, these were the issues that as I used to support everything Bush did made me pause and say hmmmmmm.
Well, I don’t want to get on other tangents, however I would say that the war has weakened our position in the world, this financial issue is certainly a beast of it’s own. Add up line upon line, sending jobs overseas weakens the labor force because all tariffs have been removed, opening up lines of credit where they shouldn’t be opened so people feel like they have money that they don’t have, printing money to falsely cover deficit spending without cutting elsewhere, having troops worldwide essentially policing the world, all these and many more contribute to our situation. Printing more money, raising inflation weakening the dollar will not help at all, the system is broken they are using bubble gum to fix the dam.
I was wavering on supporting the Ron Paul platform and Chuck Baldwin, this issue only solidifies it for me.
I have your comments copied into word and will add a rebuttal when I get a chance.
BTW, I wanted to post this I thought it is interesting. I pay attention to the conspiracy theories from time to time, I think often times they are way off. They are saying that Bush is planning declaring a financial emergency on this country and calling off the elections. An interesting side note, Troops are being called from Iraq to be stationed in the US in case of Martial Law. The last was reported on Amyu Goodwin’s Democracy Now. I want to make it clear I don’t buy everything but I thought it would be interesting none the less. I personally think if Bush called of the elections there would be a HUGE revolt even among his supporters.
By the way, if this war is bankrupting our government, why is the government working on a plan to bail out the financial markets to the tune of over a trillion dollars? Lack of money is definitely not the issue.
I will be replying to you over the weekend Greg, I am busy at work today.
On another note, have any of you guys been catching the interviews with Palin. Even you staunch supporters of her have to admit, very embarrassing.
BTW, I love all the pub that Ron Paul has been getting over this financial issue, maybe the crazy Dr. is not so crazy. Also, I was pleased to hear he endorsed my man Chuck Baldwin, which my wife likes to say was one week after we put his sign in our front yard. 😉
Here is an interesting editorial regarding success in Iraq
http://ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=307234804224200
Jeff,
Thank you for conceding the point regarding the term “brainwashed.” Many times I have regretted using too strong a term to describe a situation and it takes a man of character to admit when he has taken a reactionary attitude.
With that being said, I must dispute the way your framed the questions
“…do you think that exchanging blood for Oil is justified? Are you saying that economics is that important that you feel it is OK to wage war on a country? As a Christian. whom your kingdom is not of this world, you support this type of imperial action to secure economically advantageous interests?”
In your question, you appear to equate economics with greed. If this is the case, I wholeheartedly oppose blood for greed and I am not saying that it is OK to wage war on a country for the cause of greed. In my arguments, economics has to do with the general welfare of the citizens of a nation and the opportunities that are available to them. Also, I must ask also what you mean by “imperial action?” We clearly have not taken any land or resources for ourselves and have turned control of the nation back over to the Iraqis and are there now to assist in stabilizing their own economy for both of our mutual benefit.
I want to make to it clear that just because I support the war in Iraq in no way means that I “support every action that a republican administration does.” My support for the war is rooted deeply in over 30 years of searching to harmonize within my philosophy the correlation between what the Bible teaches and how it relates to the real world. It is in the Bible that I strive to base all of my philosophical thought (many times unsuccessfully due to my own sinful nature as a fallen man) and when my own philosophy does not square with Scripture, guess what needs to change? It is also rooted in my experiences in dealing with radicals on the left side of the political spectrum. I have had eggs thrown my way at political rallies, been cussed out because of my beliefs, and have seen that the main objective of many of these radicals is to silence me and those who think like me.
At this point, I want to back up just a little and lay a little more philosophical groundwork in a more broad sense. First, I want to make fully clear that when I speak of economics, I am speaking in terms of economic systems and how they affect the lives of those within them. I referenced Matt Perman’s blog post on the Desiring God blog on September 19 “Why I Pray For The Economy,” which I still highly recommend that you read in full. His first paragraph states,
“I pray for the economy at all times, not just times of crisis, because as Christians we are to wish for and seek the welfare of others. There are few things that have more impact on the welfare of large groups of people, in the physical sense, than the state of the economy. Therefore, I believe that the command to “love your neighbor” implies that we desire, seek, and pray for the welfare of the economy.”
I believe that no other subject gets to the heart of any matter quicker than the subject of economics. The reason for this is found in Matthew 6:21 “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Jesus reiterates this point in verse 24 “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”
As a Christian, and conservative capitalist, I believe that since economics is at the heart of most conflicts, it must be a crucial consideration in the resolution of those conflicts. It is an accepted notion that Saddam had his mind set to control the flow of oil in the Gulf region. If he had secured the control of the flow of oil, he would have had whatever capital he needed to finance his ultimate plan to resurrect the Babylonian Empire. It was his greed and lust for power that this war has averted and now Iraq is on track to become an important player in the world economy.
Second, if we are putting our faith in politicians, governments, or any human being for that matter, to “make the world a better place,” we are just fooling ourselves. As you stated before, Jesus is the Prince of Peace, but that is regarding His spiritual kingdom at this time. He will return to set up His earthly kingdom in the future, but in the meantime, we must be about reaching as many people as possible with the Gospel. This mission is the job of the Church, NOT the government.
Government’s purpose is laid out in the Declaration of Independence, as well as the Constitution. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” (Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2) The government is to secure these God given rights for all of it’s citizens. The Constitution further clarifies the purpose of government, “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” The powers of government are foundationally laid within these two documents.
The Church’s purpose is to “preach the Gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15) and be Christ’s ambassadors in this wretched world. (II Corinthians 5:20) We as Americans have had it so easy compared to the rest of the world. This is because our founding fathers knew that our government needed to be established on the solid foundation of the Bible. Unfortunately, we have fallen prey to a specifically American theology that when we come to Christ, all of our problem will be solved! No more conflict! God has a WONDERFUL PLAN for your life! You can have your best life NOW! What about the Christians in Orissa province being taken from their homes, tortured, and murdered just because of their faith in Christ? Are they living their best life now? I certainly hope not. (By the way, what has the left said about this? Hmm?!)
All of this to say that we have a real distorted view of how we are to live as Christians in this wretched world. Since many of us don’t have the guts to warn even our closest friends and family (myself included) that the wrath of God is revealed to those who hold the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and that they have no excuse for their rebellion (Romans 1:20), how in the world can we expect them to act righteously? Each and every one of us in our natural state is a dirty, rotten, filthy, wretched sinner and the only hope we have is in the grace and mercy of the Almighty, Infinite, and Perfect God of the Universe. This is the only hope for mankind.
“I’ll be responding later (with my son’s football game last night and having to work for a living, I’ll need more time!), but here is some food for thought:
http://digg.com/world_news/Chicago_death_toll_double_that_of_Iraq
Should we pull out of Chicago? Just a thought… ”
To this point and I recognize that there was some lightheartedness to this comment but this is where I differ.
This type of comment completely ignores the effect that this war has had on the Iraqi people. In war it is inevitable that innocent men, women and children will die and suffer great injuries. How many? I have heard figures of up to 600,000 casualties. What about the severely maimed. What about the effects of the hornets nest that we stirred up with the factions fighting each other. Something of which Dick Chaney himself said was an issue back in 1991 and one of the reason he opposed attacking Bagdad back then. What about the lives of the families who have had to free their homes and live as refugees. BTW, my next door neighbor’s family has had to do this. What about all the wounded soldiers of our own? These numbers don’t just affect single individuals they affect the friends and family of the dead and wounded. Like I said, I know the comment was a half hearted attempt at humor, but it hits to the heart of why I think 1. This war is more wrong then ever, 2. Why I think leaders should NEVER rush and deceive the public into war. Add to that all the war profiteering that has happened and it just turns my stomach. As a Christian I view all humans as made in God’s image no matter their worldview and to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord justify this really troubles me. We should always be about social justice but this war was exactly the opposite of that.
I look forward to the counterpoint. 😉
It’s a good idea to read the blog post I referenced previously as well:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1400_why_i_pray_for_the_economy/
Talk to you later.
Jeff,
I’ll be responding later (with my son’s football game last night and having to work for a living, I’ll need more time!), but here is some food for thought:
http://digg.com/world_news/Chicago_death_toll_double_that_of_Iraq
Should we pull out of Chicago? Just a thought… 🙂
One more thing, you want to see right wing money hungry politics in action? Pay close attention to what is going on right now with the financial situation and look up Naomi Klein on Youtube. It is very clear what is going on and should make left and right wingers very angry. I am a little fired up by the “resolution” to this crisis.
Let me go a little further here is what I personally advocate. I have seen especially in Christian circles the concept where folks attach themselves to people and hold on without criticism. I advocate no longer justifying the actions of any political party just because they have your vote. In fact, if they have your vote we should be holding them more accountable. I think all to often, no you Greg, many Christians think they are suppose to submit to leadership and this means that since the republican party is for our “causes” then we need to submit and trust whatever they say. In fact, my pastor basically said in passing (during communion) that people need to not question the leadership of this country and that GWB was a good Godly man. I almost walked out, it’s this type of tying to a party that is completely unbiblical and uncalled for. It truly is making our kingdom of this world and not of God. This is what eats me to the core with republican politics and the Christian right.
Regarding calling this person brainwashed, I will be the first person to admit that I have a reactionary attitude and maybe using that terminology is a bit harsh. I concede.
OK, let’s hash this out. In the third paragraph you mentioned the bandwagon fallacy of “Bush lied, people died”. I assume that since you seem to support Bush on this war that you do not think that he and his administration lied about the intelligence? Is so, how do you account for all the reports of cherry picked intelligence and blatant misinformation given during that time? Here are a few examples:
Bush mentioned in his 2003 state of the union address that Saddam was 6 months away from developing WMD’s according to the NIEA. However, when the media looked into it and called the NIEA they found that this report was from 1991, he was called out on his and basically ignored the discrepancy.
Here is another, he also mentioned in the 20003 SOU address that it was confirmed that Saddam had purchased yellow cake uranium from Niger. However, when Joe Wilson went to Niger to investigate this claim he found that the documents were forged. He brought this information to the administration and it was ignored. Add to that when he went public with it his CIA operative wife’s identity was revealed. Do you think the administration wanted to hide something? Those are just 2 examples, we could talk about them lying about tying Saddam to the 9/11 terrorist even though he hated and fought religious extremist, but to me is shows clearly they wanted to go to war no matter what. To me as a Christian, war is something that hurts everyone involved and should only be done when it is a last resort, these two incidences would indicate an opposite motive to me.
In the 4th and 5th paragraph, you mentioned that based on economics and the need for free flowing Oil is important to maintaining security and a stable economy. I am going to call you out on this my brother, do you think that exchanging blood for Oil is justified? Are you saying that economics is that important that you feel it is OK to wage war on a country. As a Christian. whom your kingdom is not of this world, you support this type of imperial action to secure economically advantageous interests?
My comment about Darfur is the idea that we were there to liberate the Iraqis from this oppressive dictator. I am not advocating war at all unless it is the last resort but we have to stop looking at ourselves as the “city on a hill” when our leaders use false intelligence, cherry picked intelligence, fear monger and deceive the public into supporting something that could have been negotiated further.
I am not a Quaker or a Mennonite, I think there is a place for war, I think in order to defend your national security you need to fight wars. However, this should only be done as a last resort; look objectively at this and one begins to realize this was not done. Leaders shouldn’t have to dupe the public to go to war; the public should be pushing the leaders to do it if the threat is that grave. To say that the flow of Oil is a reason to go to war is a hard pill for me to swallow. Which when you look at the close ties that the right wing has with big Oil you then start to ask more cynical questions about the motives. I had a friend ask me if the Iraq war was about Oil then why are we not paying less for Oil; I respond look at the profits of the Oil companies and ask the same question. Shock and Awe, the more I study politics the more I despise the republican party(I have voted GOP for 17years now) they care about big business only, add to that the connection to the Christian right and it makes my stomach turn. Greg I know you are a reasonable person and I would encourage you to look into an author named John W. Dean. He is an old time conservative who has a lot to say about how the NeoConservatives have hijacked the party and are way off base. He has 3 books on the topic, you might be able to get them in audio form from the library, something I love to do is listen to the books since it is hard to find time to sit down and read with all other life’s distractions. John Dean’s books really helped my understanding of this administration and its tactics.
Hey Jeff,
“A Sovereign God will still be in control even in an Obama administration.”
This is absolutely one point we agree on, my friend. If He wants it to happen, it will. the consequences are also His will and just maybe they are a sign that He means to draw the True Converts closer to Himself through persecution and through the same means weed out all of the false converts. I’m glad we at least have this one point of common ground.
By the way, I’ll be happy to further discuss any issue you please in a loving and civil manner. This is the most productive form of debate as far as I am concerned. Besides, it challenges me to fully think trough all of my positions and in the end, it’s making me rely more and more on the Lord for His insight, especially in the way I respond! Take care.
Ok, I am going to try and recreate the comments I attempted to post last week with my thoughts on this matter. I guess that the system just didn’t take them and I will not include any URLs in this comment. Thanks for your patience.
First of all, the term “brainwashed” is WAY too strong with regards to this man’s service to his country and his opinion of which candidate to support in this election. He, more than any of us who never served in the military, has earned his right and by the sacrifice of all like him who gave their lives in honor have secured the same rights for all of us here at home. You may not agree with him, but you cannot deny that his service is honorable and deserves our highest respect, regardless of our opinions of the merits of this war.
Speaking of which, the reasons for or against the war in Iraq are rarely presented in a comprehensive manner. What I mean is that most of the time certain points are thrown out and accepted as fact without any verification or foundation given. I see it many times as the bandwagon fallacy because platitudes such as “Bush lied, people died” appeal much more to the emotions rather than the intellect. The merits of that argument are rarely seen or given historic significance.
Let’s address one point that has been hammered ad nauseum. Many on the left have said that this war was fought only for oil. I agree that this war was fought partially for oil, but with a different motivating factor. Profit is the factor most hammered by these proponents. Personally, I have no problem with that being one of the motivating factors, but that’s another discussion. In studying the world economy, we must come to the conclusion that oil is the fuel of economic freedom. With the emergence of China and India as major players in the world economy, this fact becomes clearer and more urgent than ever. Before we will change to a different fuel to drive our trucks, cars, planes, and ships, the demand for oil is going to increase and this will not change in the immediate future.
Since the free flow of oil is essential to the world’s economy, it is of utmost importance to our own economy (as well as safety) that the current supply lines are maintained until new sources of oil, and eventually alternative fuels, be explored and developed. Saddam Hussein was a threat to the region beginning in his invasion the oil-rich sovereign nation of Kuwait in 1990, leading all the way up to his capture on December 15, 2003. If he or another despotic dictator seized control of the flow of oil, he would then have incredible power over the rest of the world. Matt Perman has a fabulous post on the Desiring God blog on why we should pray for the economy (If you want the URL, email me and I’ll send it to you since I promised no URLs in this comment). Economics plays a huge role in people’s actions. Christ Himself said that where your treasure is, there will be your heart also (Matthew 6:21, Luke 12:34) and that you cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13).
The next point is that we went into Iraq due to the threat of weapons of mass destruction and since we found none, the war is unjust. As I previously stated, it was Saddam Hussein that attacked an oil-rich sovereign nation in order to control more of the Middle East’s vast oil resources back in 1990. Because of the strategic importance of the Kuwaiti oil resources, the US acted to drive Saddam out of Kuwait with a swift and effective offensive in Desert Storm. After the hostilities ceased, Saddam over the course of 12 years and 16 UN resolutions was to allow weapons inspectors’ unfettered access to what they needed to see in order to determine the existence of WMDs. UN Resolution 1441 specifically gave the US the go ahead to invade Iraq if Saddam refused to comply. Based on our intelligence, as well as worldwide intelligence (a fact that many on the side against the war conveniently leave out), we determined that the risk of the possibility of Saddam having WMDs was a risk that had to be dealt with.
Another point garnered by opponents of the war is the question of “Why Iraq and not Darfur?” It is obvious that if the flow of oil were to be disrupted, it would have devastating consequences on the world economy; therefore the war in Iraq has a direct bearing on our national interests. Darfur, while shocking and brutal, has less of a bearing. Are you suggesting that we go to war with the Sudan? If not, the “Why Iraq and not Darfur” question is a red herring.
The bottom line for me regarding the war in Iraq is that national security should be one of the top issues with which we should be concerned. I am amazed when I learn more about our founding fathers and the system of government they created. The fact that we are free gives us unique opportunities to openly speak our philosophies. Whether you are on the left or the right, soldiers throughout our history gave their blood in order that we can have these rights. Agree or disagree with the war, they still deserve our respect and gratitude.
Jeff,
Thank you again for the compliment. I’ve had this problem before when the WordPress did not post the comment and I emailed Paul to release it. Usually I write my comments in a text editor and then cut and paste, but last night I wrote it directly on the webpage (DUH) and I don’t have a copy of it. Unfortunately, I don’t have any more time tonight (we’re going to the airport to meet my brother and sister-in-law and their new adopted daughter YAY!!!). I do look forward to discussing this with you further.
Greg,
I welcome your reasoned response. BTW, sometimes URL’s just don’t come through and I don’t think it is a requirement of Paul to release it. You may want to modify the URL and make aware of the modification.
I want to make the point also that I am not a pacifist. But man, i don’t know how any Christian who technically is a follower of Jesus, remember the prince of PEACE? can be for a war that was do blatantly sold to the American public. War is an ugly thing; it should only be fought under the most dyer of circumstances. Whenever I bring this topic up on this blog I almost never get a rebuttal, the only thing I can conclude that that most feel the way I do but support the administrations stance on it because this is what most good Christians are supposed to do. Look, I understand, I initially supported the war, I voted for GWB twice, however, I look back and regret both stances. I have repented and learn from my mistakes. I would love to hash this out with those on this board that are in support of this war. Let’s talk about WMD’s, let’s talk about Niger, Yellow cake uranium/Joe Wilson/ Valarie Plame, Let’s talk fear mongering and mushroom clouds, Let’s talk Blackwater it’s close ties to the Christian right and war profiteering, let’s talk KBR and Halliburton.
Guys, I don’t mean to sound arrogant or anti patriotic here, but there is something wrong when the secularist have a louder voice the Christians on social justice matters. Most of it goes back to being politically affiliated with a certain party. I am very passionate about this for a number of reasons. As Bob has indicated it is bankrupting our economy. In every war it is inevitable that innocent lives will be harmed, these are all God’s children folks no matter what worldview they have, God’s so loved the WORLD, not just Christians in America. When our leaders take it lightly and we don’t hold them accountable then we share in the injustice.
We need to come back and realize what war is all about and hold our leaders feet to the fire when they make mistake both Democrat and Republican. I would love to have a loving discussion on these matters with those of you who supported Bush and still support him and McCain on these matters. BTW, Chuck Baldwin is very much against this war and is one of the reasons why voting principle over pragmaticism is going to be easy for me this year. A Sovereign God will still be in control even in an Obama administration.
b/Bo,
I understand that and I made a comment to this thread last night (that had a URL in the comment and the system did not post it so i am waiting for Paul to release it – He wasn’t up in the middle of the night – I guess one of us has to sleep!:D) that goes into more detail regarding our reasons for the war in Iraq. I will wait to comment any further until that comment posts. Talk with you then!
Greg, once again I’m not arguing “for” Obama, I’m merely responding “against” the sentimental, off-the-mark video.
Obama wants the war in Iraq it end, but only on his timetable.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09152008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obama_tried_to_stall_gis_iraq_withdrawal_129150.htm?&page=1
John Stewart and Stephen Colbert are great at pointing out truth to comedy.
On a more serious note, I think this person in the video could argue with this person.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvGEoZ9vMSg
Maybe that guy could argue it with this guy:
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=185019
I personally know people who have chosen to serve in the military and I deeply respect their courage to go into harm’s way for the sake of others. I pray for their safety.
However, we didn’t go over to Iraq to make them better off or to bring democracy to them or to end Saddam’s tyranny – we went over there supposedly because of the threat of weapons of mass destruction and the threat of terror against us. That turned out to be a crock of skubalon, and it appears that there was intent to deceive the American people about it.
Therefore, I feel bad for the young man who implicitly made such a sacrifice, and I lay the blame for that at the feet of the current administration.
I don’t know if the Iraqis are “better off” now or not and that was never our job in the first place, that was Saddam’s job. I do know that we’re out of billions and billions of dollars spent to make them (as opposed to America) “better off” while we go trillions of dollars in debt. That doesn’t make sense to me, regardless of the sentimental music playing at the end of the video (which reminded me suspiciously of a Ray Boltz tune…)
I wish I had a solution, but “if the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?”. I’m afraid this nation is finally reaping what it has sown for many years, and I fear that it’s going down. However, my responsibility as a follower of Jesus remains the same regardless of the economy, administration, or whatever, and I pray to endure to the end.
I wonder if the military service brainwashed this guy. For every 1 of these guys there are many dead and wounded soldiers and family that would not have the same opinion. The Iraqi war was based on lies and has continued because of war profiteers and Oil interests. The folks in Darfur have suffered many times more than the Iraqis were under Saddam. Why Iraq and not Darfur? Oil War is something that our leaders should consider as a last resort, the only option, a thing that a good leader should never want to do. This was not this case with this administration and it’s many false intelligence reports and deceptive selling to the media. We were scared as a nation after 9/11 and bought it hook, line a sinker.
The thought that the christian community is in support of war is something that I had a hard time with when it happened and now that I step back and realize that I don’t have to support every action that a republican administration does, just blows my mind.