NEWSWEEK: 91% of Americans believe in God
TIME: Biblical llliteracy on the rise
BARNA: 100 Million Americans never attend church
So if it’s true that 91% of American’s believe in God, why aren’t they reading His word and attending His church?
The conventional answers to these questions derive from sociology rather than spirituality. Ask today’s church leaders why people don’t read the Bible or attend church and they will immediately blame the Bible and the church! I recently interviewed a theology Ph.D. candidate on my program who told me that even he couldn’t understand the King James Version of the Bible! Really?
One megachurch pastor recently released a book in which he cites four possible reasons why the church fails to draw a crowd: God, the Message, the World, or the Church. God is off the hook because, well, he’s GOD! The Message is off the hook because it’s supposed to be timeless and transcend culture. The shocking point he makes is that the World is also off the hook because without the darkness there would be no light! By process of elimination it is the CHURCH that is the problem, even though the Church was founded by Jesus Christ with the promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. The problem with the church is that it doesn’t know how to relate and it is using outmoded methods to accomplish the task of drawing lost sinners. Nothing is ever mentioned about the theological truth that lost sinners in their natural state will never find the true gospel of the cross attractive (1 Corinthians 1, 2).
The fact is, the reason why so many Americans say they believe in God and yet live lives of practical atheism as demonstrated by their lack of church attendance and Bible knowlege is because America’s understanding of God is civil and not relational. American’s believe in God the way they believe in the sun coming up tomorrow: they know God is there, they know He makes some difference to their lives, but for the most part they’re oblivious to the real implications of who God is. God makes no conscionable difference to they way they live their lives, unless and until tragedy strikes, because American’s honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. American’s may know God (or think they know God) but the critical factor is whether or not God knows them (John 10:27; Matthew 7:23). And the people God has identified as His sheep will not fail to grow in grace and in the knowlege of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they will not fail in assembling together as God’s redeemed people. God’s people love God’s word and God’s people. People who ignore God’s word and God’s people, even though they say they believe in God, are not God’s people. Let’s stop kidding ourselves when the secular polls give us so false hope that America is in revival. “By their fruits…”
Ben,
Actually I’m impressed. Your age has nothing to do with it. You do have a basis from which you operate. To equate Charles Finney with Joel Olsteen is still quite a stretch for me. You state in a previous post that you were not quite sure what I meant about “attacking the elders” remark, now at least, you give a defence for your position. I know you said this was your last post on this issue so I will cease asking any questions. It appears you are equating yourself with the apostle Paul to have the discernment to chastise another minister, preacher or any term you are comfortable with. I would like to remind you, Paul was under the “inspiration “of The Holy Spirit at the time, he had the Damascus road experience, and had been imprisoned, not to mention this was his calling. And quite a calling it was, I personally cannot recall anyone else that received a call after this fashion. These experiences should give a person somewhat of an edge over you and I. Our calling as a church is firstly, to preach the gospel to all nations making disciples of our people. Then to grow them into mature followers of Christ. And yes, to stand up against false doctrine. To be a New Testament church we must first preach, then teach, then train. I wonder if you enjoy the chastisement part above the harder task of training converts to be mature in the faith, there seems to be a preoccupation with this element. Feel free to inquire of Paul Edwards as to the task of training his flock, I’m certain after 25 years of service to the Lord he can attest to you how difficult it is to earn the trust of a congregation, and how much easier it is to tear down than build up. You also seem hold a disdain with numbers, yet a book of scripture is given over to the count, even the hairs of your head are counted, there is a book with all the saved recorded and counted in heaven. As you know, Abraham’s seed was likened to the sand of the sea, that’s a lot! You are correct to a degree and I know you will say that it is God doing the counting, but perhaps it is for an example. Numbers should not be your only goal, but rather a barometer. God does count, and so should we. Luke 22:3, John 6:10. Acts 1:15, 4:4, 6:1, 6:7,11:21,16:5, Rev.5:11, 7:9. One final thought, you seem to mix texts written to the Jewish people with that for the church. I trust you see that although, all scripture is given for our benefit and is profitable for instruction, that it must be rightly divided. You show great talent and insight, not many at any age are as well spoken as you. Your potential is tremendous. How about getting past the anger at the failed efforts of some churches and leave the rebuke to the ones God has called to do it. “Now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three, but the greatest of these is charity” I Corinthians 13:13 KJV. That’s “love” in the English Standard Version, but of coarse you knew that. Get past these blockades, God could use you!
Don,
I feel that our chat goes nowhere, and I do realize that in the end it really does not make a difference what I’m telling you because you already made your decision to not listen. And, honestly, you have every right to not listen to someone who’s half your age and has no formal theological training.
So, this is my final post. Remember, I’m just giving you my honest opinion.
That’s what you said: “What happened to the Holy Spirit while all this dilution was occurring? Was He impudent also? This all started by my position that nothing happens without the foreknowledge of God.”
Jeremiah 6:14 (English Standard Version):
“They have healed the wound of my people lightly,
saying, ‘Peace, peace,’
when there is no peace.”
It seems to me that this is not something new; we always had people that dilute God’s message. Yes, God knew about it. God expects us to stand up and speak clearly his message.
When you have “evangelists” that don’t believe and don’t preach justification by faith, I ask you … are they preaching the gospel?
When you have “evangelists” that claim that there is no Trinity are they preaching the gospel?
When you have “evangelists” that believe that Jesus’ blood is not enough to save us (as Finney clearly stated) are they preaching the gospel?
When you have “evangelists” that come on TV and instead of preaching the gospel, they give some “positive message” (like Joel Olsteen) are they preaching the gospel?
I could go on and on …
Our calling as a church is to condemn this false gospel and preach the right gospel.
Yes, God knows about it, but that does not mean that He is happy about it.
Romans 1:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. ”
Remember Paul when he challenges Peter? Read Galatians:
“But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel…”
Can you believe this “attack” ? Peter was an apostle, some churches claim he’s the greatest apostle; however, Paul sees what’s at stake and confronts Peter.
Gal. 2:
” 15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified[a] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ,[b] so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. ”
Hmmmm, why did he attack Peter? Justification by faith, not by works.
My point exactly! We as a church are called to do what Paul did.
If we fail, we create this confusion about what God entrusted us to present to the people: His message.
As for which “Old Book” … it is the Bible, the fully inspired God’s message.
As for which “right message” … it’s the whole Bible; but at the center of it is the doctrine of justification by faith alone, by Jesus’ blood alone.
Personally, I am what you might call a Calvinist; therefore, I strongly believe in God’s sovereignty in matters of salvation. That is exactly why, it’s not Church’s business to concern itself with numbers. All we have to do is to make sure that the gospel is presented, and God will bring fruit.
The apostle Paul clearly states what Paul Edwards has already stated:
Romans 10:17
“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
God bless you Don ~
Ben, You stated that Charles Finney was responsible for diluting the gospel to a point of not being able to recognize it. Then you further expanded this charge to the other evangelists. Sounds like a attack to me. Were any of them up to standard? That is quite a charge. What happened to the Holy Spirit while all this dilution was occuring? Was He impudent also? This all started by my position that nothing happens without the foreknowledge of God. There “is” an appointed time to die, “only the Father,” Mark 13:32 knows the day or hour of Christ’s return. How did most of this get in the fodder? Is it for sport? When did I ever state that justification was anything except by faith alone? What is properly presenting the gospel? How would you do it? What is real power? Also, I did not imply that the church is “only” to play, sing, or endorse the old hymns. What I am saying is that these issues are symptomatic of the decline. There appears to be a distain for the older hymns as if they represent a day we do not wish to remember. I agree that many churches overlook right and wrong, did I imply otherwise, I did not mean to. Another Question, as you look over history when “did” we start to lose the fight? What is the “fully presented gospel”? Does a sinners comming to God have anything to do with a calling? or is it entirely up to the “willingness” of the sinner? And, which “Old Book”, do you go to and find the “right” message, you dodged this last time. Please help me. I ,like you, don”t get the point.
Don,
I’m not sure I follow the whole “attacking the elders” remark. Maybe you are referring to my comments about Charles Finney. This is what I said abuot that:
“And in my opinion this started long before post-modernism, it started with Finney and with other evangelists who have tried to simplify the gospel and ended up diluting it to a point where it cannot be recognized.”
The key word there: “started” … there is no doubt in my mind that God used Finney, however let me give you some quotes from him:
“These and similar passages are relied upon, as teaching the doctrine of an imputed righteousness; and such as these: “The Lord our righteousness” (Phil. 3:9). . . . “Christ our righteousness” is Christ the author or procurer of our justification. But this does not imply that He procures our justification by imputing His obedience to us. . . [Charles Finney, Systematic Theology (Minneapolis: Bethany), 372-73].”
“Those who hold that justification by imputed righteousness is a forensic proceeding, take a view of final or ultimate justification, according with their view of the nature of the transaction. With them, faith receives an imputed righteousness, and a judicial justification. The first act of faith, according to them, introduces the sinner into this relation, and obtains for him a perpetual justification. They maintain that after this first act of faith it is impossible for the sinner to come into condemnation; “[Systematic Theology, 369].
… I can go on and on … I have no “professional” training in theology, but the moment one denies justification by faith I believe one looses the full message of the gospel … If my salvation is not based completely on what Jesus did on the cross, if it’s not paid in full, then I’m still lost.
Looking back at church’s history it is not my call to decide who preached the gospel and who did not; I’m very happy that we as Christians have such a large collection of quality writings they left behind. Spurgeon’s sermons still touch many lifes today, including mine.
But, coming back to our topic … I feel that here is where we are loosing the fight, as a church, the gospel can be powerful only when it is rightly presented.
I see this trend that exists in our evangelical circles: we are more known for what we stand against than for what we stand for.
Yes, God is holy, but God is also love. God is so far, yet so close to us. This balance is not easy to be represented in our churches. And usually people fall into one of the extremes: churches that emphasize God’s holiness without His love become legalistic and cold; whereas, churches that emphasize God’s love forgetting his holiness become churches that don’t keep their people accountable, churches where everything is “ok”.
You talk of “power”, “experiencing the power”. I strongly believe that the real power will only come when people understand more and more God’s message.
I have to agree with Paul on this one: “But in terms of the church being the problem that stands in the way of lost sinners, simply because it sings hymns instead of rock worship, is ludicrous!”
I would also like to claim that the reverse is also true: we are not standing in the way of sinners because we are not singing the old hymns anymore.
It really is all about the gospel and the sinner’s unwillingness to come to God. Our calling as a church is to present the gospel fully. It is not our calling to count how many are coming to Christ and based on that to change the gospel. The only standard to check if our message is right is to go to the Old Book and with Holy Spirit’s help to understand it and live it.
Ben, Now you have hit upon the crux of the matter. How do you propose to present God’s holiness with a style the has little difference from that of Saturday night television? To illistrate what I mean, when the scribes were copying the Word of God from one parchment to another and they came to the word “God” in any of its forms, they would go and completly bath themselves and then write the word. If the word appeared several times in a text, several baths. Can you begin to estimate how long it would take to finish this task? How many times in your life have you experenced this level of reverence for our God? I am a bit taken back at a criticism of Charles Finney and other evangelists of time past, perhaps Charles Spurgeon, Dwight Moody, Mordecai Hamm, Wade House, Billy Sunday, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, were used of Satan also. Biblical historians estimate that Charles Finney alone was used of God to lead more than 500,000 souls to Christ. I am more than taken back. It has been reported that during his sermons, sinners would grip the back of the pews and start repenting prior to the end of the services. Have you ever experenced this power? I’ve not, but if I knew it was going on today, I would surely try to become a part of it! Also, I can’t recall a single minute of sleep I’ve lost, over what any one’s music choices are. Did I say that? You are right in one acessment, though, the music is Satan’s strategy. You mention your youth but Paul the apostle recommended the young Timothy as “wise beyond his years”, and I do not ever recall Timothy attacking his elder statesmen in the faith. The host of this program, Paul D Edwards, at a young age, was recommended to a local church in Allen Park, Mi, by a highly respected christian leader with this same charge, “he is wise beyond his years” and went forth and served his sending well, and never in that did he attact this leader. I’am still taken back ,and at a loss for any more words other than, have at it. Perhaps you are the next Charles Finney.
I just realized that I’m half your age … I’m saying that not to make you feel old, but rather to show you how young and unexperienced I am.
As for why so many people go to church … it is sad, but I think they go as they would go to a country club… maybe get some good entertainment, a good laugh, a “positive” message a la Joel Olsteen.
As for the music, I think is Satan’s strategy for us Christians to lose so much sleep over something like it. I’ve seen so many people even in my local church complaining about the music but rarely or never about the message or lack of it.
I know the old hymns are full of doctrinal truth, but not everything that is old is good, and also what is old to us was at one point new to others. So, I’m all for doctrinal sound hymns, not necessarily old.
I still think there’s nothing wrong with the postmodern methods in themselves (like music, drama, and so on). The problem is when we corrupt God’s message.
And in my opinion this started long before post-modernism, it started with Finney and with other evangelists who have tried to simplify the gospel and ended up diluting it to a point where it cannot be recognized.
But in the end the Old Book says that whosoever shall seek me, shall find me … and that’s God’s promise. Nothing can stop that promise.
The gospel is not just John 3:16, it is the whole Bible. How can someone understand salvation if he/she does not know what are they being saved for? How can they understand sin, if they don’t know God’s holiness?
I also think that if a local church does not present the gospel, we should tell them, and if nothing changes we should move on. Again, it’s the gospel that makes the church, not the church that makes the gospel.
With much respect and esteem,
Ben.
Benjamin, Thank you for your graciousness. I knew that this issue would never be settled this side of heaven, however, I put it out there to stimulate some thought process. I agree, and thank our Lord that there are many who have remained faithful. We also know that this battle over the Word of God is one that most are not willing to engage. I can remember when the battle was over the differences between the old Scofield and the new. However, when verses are changed like Col. 1:14 and the portion “through His blood” is removed, and Isa. 53:1 is changed from with his “stripes” we are healed to “wounds”, I struggle with this. I worked in my yard last week and have wounds on my hands, but not a single “stripe”, but I know, none of this is new. What is still new to me is the fact that “my sins, not in part, but the whole”, have been covered to be remembered no more and I “bear them no more”, all I have left in my vocabulary is “Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord, o my soul”. In my 54 years I have been in the valley more than on the mountain top, but have never not been able to come “boldly before the throne” and receive intercession from my elder brother before my heavenly Father. These precious promises and truths come from the Word of God, that I have on my nightstand, and is available for me to read and re-read, and dwell upon, and weep over, and rejoice in. This old book is a tangable letter written to me from my Father and deliverd to me by way of the Holy Spirit, who keeps me prepared, and set apart for a far grandeur event than we can ever hope to partake in on this side. You see I have come to the conclusion in my life, that I would rather find out that I held the Word in too high of esteem than too low. As for me and my house, we will believe we have it in our house and can read it any time we choose and can trust ever word to be perfect. Many great men do not hold this position and we are still on the same team, so I can get over it. I would ask, if people are no longer seeking, why are so many showing up at these churches? Could it be they are seeking and not finding, the real gospel? There are enough warnings in the scriptures to the pastors about apostasy to place the responsibility on the local churches as well as the individuals. It is my opinion that when we began to question our book, we also began to change our music and our power that once visited us, slowly eroded away to the end we see today. There is more doctrine and gospel in the old hymns then a seeking person can find in the pulpet of many of our postmodern chuches. I know, I was there before, and I’am still here now. The power of the gospel itself has been abandoned for a less offensive message. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth unto to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” Romans 1:16. I will therefore encourage all who read this blog to remember who the real enemy is, he is still going to and fro, seeking whom he may devour. Let us all set our sights on things eternal, fight the good fight,
“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” Luke 22:28. Even so come Lord Jesus!
Yes Don … I think that’s the real issue: is the gospel being preached?
We are judging everything by numbers, by the money that a ministry has, by the number of converts it brings every month and so on…
If somebody would’ve applied the same standard to let’s say: Jeremiah’s life … what would they say? He was a failure? He didn’t preach the right message?
I think the Church has lost its patience and its confidence in the gospel. We want results, and we want them now. We want a quick fix. Somebody once said: “a pumpkin grows in 6 weeks, an oak its entire life”. The real maturity in Christ takes time, takes discipline.
I also remember pastor Erwin Lutzer saying once that the sad thing is that Christian parents want good children not necessarily good Christians… how sad.
But coming back to your question: Which Word? The answer is The Word. 🙂 Without God’s revelation we would still be in the darkness.
I really don’t understand the people that take Bible to be just another good book to live a moral life. The Bible over 2,000 claims to be God’s word. Why would someone “respect” a book filled with “lies”?
But coming back to the original post, I think we can agree with Paul … in the end, the blame falls on the individual not on the church… there still are, thank God, churches that preach and live the gospel with power.
It is the individual who in the end discerns the Truth from the lies.
And even though we are fallible, if we are born again then Holy Spirit is in us, and as Jesus promised us, He is there to guide us, to help us, to direct us to the right place where the gospel is being preached.
God’s promise is still true today: seek and you shall find.
The problem is that people are no longer seeking.
There is an area the church needs to answer back and with power in this postmodern era. We don’t have to become postmodern to have an impact on the world; however, as Francis Schaeffer said the problem is not that we don’t know the answers (the gospel), the problem is that we don’t know the questions.
Benjamin,
Exactly on point!!! Without sounding critical I have a question. Which Word?
Far too many discrepancies between them, to be all of them, or even some of them. If one is to proclaim the Word, he must have a Word to proclaim. I suspect this is why we have so many “different gospel’s” today, so many different Words. If one can create confusion as to what is absolute truth, one can dissolve the foundation of truth. “YEA, HATH GOD SAID,…” GEN;1 and so I ask again, and I don”t me to you as much as all that read this blog, as I do not know what your position is, WHICH WORD? How has this question become so irrelevant to the church today? How can I know what is truth when most christian leaders today, disagree on this crucial point? Is it up to a fallible man, such as myself? If we do not have the perfect Word of God, who does? “To whom shall we go?” If Satan thought it important enough to attack this very premise on the opening volly, what should our position be? Is it any wonder why we find ourselves in this crisis of the very topic of this blog, The Tale The Poles Tell? Has the Church had a inspired, preserved, perfect Word of God over the last forty years? The answer to this will probably tell the tale the pole tells.
Good response Paul!
I would only try to attack the basic assumption: the church not attracting a large crowd is a bad thing in itself.
While it is true that we are to present the gospel to many, the church’s main goal is to present the gospel without compromising. I personally think that a lot of churches have changed the gospel to attract people. The result: a type of Christianity that does not require all our hearts, our minds, our bodies.
“The content of church proclamation is therefore not just anything and everything. The church’s message to the world is not about the energy crisis, pollution, white or black power, detente, the Israeli-Arab conflict, ad infinitum. It is the very specific Word of God. The church is called to proclaim what God says and does. Unless it verbally articulates and communicates the revelation of God, the church has no distinctive right to be heard, to survive, or to even exist.
Nor is the Christian minister anything and everything – a fund-raiser, marriage-counselor, pulpit orator, public relations specialist, ad infinitum. He is primarily the proclaimer of God’s revealed Word. Unless he declares the revelation of God he has no unique vocational claim and standing.” (Carl Henry: God, Revelation and Authority vol. II)
The church should proclaim the gospel and forget about the numbers; trust God that He will bring real fruit!
Robert, Thanks for the advise, this assumes the fact that I know how to paste. You get that stuff at the dollar store don’t you. Too old school to be very proficiant. I still thought that I was typing on a typewriter until someone told me it is called a keyboard. Did I tell you that Jesus loves me…this I know, for His Spirit beareth witness with my spirit. Absolutely incredibile!!!!! Nought have I gotten ,but what I received, grace hath bestowed it since I have beleived, boasting excluded, pride I abase, I’am only a sinner, saved by grace. Thats an old one thats not very profitable for my self esteem, didn’t Jesus relize this Brad?
This is what I was attempting to say with a level of encouragement in it. Perhaps I miss perceived a tone of discouragement in your first post. We can only control what “we” have to offer,I never meant to imply that our shortcommings were His will, rather that our shortcommings were factored in the plan. In regards to Bro Moodys statement, do you suppose that God would have known if there ever was to be a man of this caliber? Again, I do not accept that our weakness has hindered the Plan in any way. To fulfill the defination of omniscience God must have known all things and all timing and all failures. The church indeed has many flaws, always has and always will, this side of the call to “come up hither”. The glory of it is that there is nothing you or I or Brad Powell, or Oliver B. Green, or Lester Rolloff, or the Pope, or the LDS, or the JW’s or any principalities or Satan can do anything that will alter what our God has planned for us. O, the “Wonder of it All” just to think that God loves me and you and Paul. Please do not let these weaklings affect the joy and victory available to us all. “And such were some of you” but…but…but! And such were I, and such were you, and such was Paul, this is my point. “Why seek ye the living among the dead?” Jesus said,” the poor ye have with you always” may I add the dead ye have with you always also.Pick at them, point them out if you want, but don’t miss the fact to pray up, stand up, look up, because we are getting ready to go up [quoted in part]. As for my dear brother Paul, I would recommend highly you seek out this ministry. He is one the the 7,000 that has not bowed the knee. I close with this acessment, again, the reason we see so much falling away today is many churches have changed the message, the music, the glory, and the results show it. Let me ask all that are reading this a simple question, can you recall the last time you knelt down with a lost soul and delivered him or her through a plan of salvation and prayed with that precious soul and witnessed the greatest of all joys. This one privledge alone will transform a person faster than anything I know. “The fruit of the righteous is the tree of life, and he that winneth souls is” still, “wise”. I love you Paul, keep singing the old hymns, and proclaiming the old message, from the old book with any method that God gives His blessing to. I do not know you personally Jason, but I can tell your my brother and I love you in the Lord also. Perhaps today!! See ya all at the supper table!!
thanks for the clarity Paul.
Look at the late Adrian Roger’s church.. over 20k people.
James Mcdonalds church in chicago… three campuses… multiple services, thousands of attenders.
Allistar Begg… megachurch
David Jeremiah… also, huge church and growth.
But you know what i love about these men.. they are preaching as Paul just said… “the Word preached produces faith for salvation.”
But at the same time… I like how they are drawing people into their church.
I like the idea of creating an “inviting atmosphere” for people to feel more comfortable who don’t like church. but at the same time, preaching the WHOLE truth so that the HS can do His job and there can be genuine conversions.
paul what church do you pastor, i’d like to visit sometime
thanks
Jason wrote:
>>>Doesn’t Paul Edwards keep mentioning how the “church today is producing a bunch of biblically illiterate believers?” Well what is implied in that statement??? That the church is responsible for doing something wrong that affects both believers and non believers.
Let’s be clear what we are talking about when we say the church is the problem, keeping lost sinners from coming to faith – as Brad Powell clearly says it is in his book.
When Brad Powell says the church is the problem, the problem he is pointing to is the fact that lost people do not find the church’s methods and progamming appealing. He solves this problem by prescribing a cultural update to the church’s methods and programming.
I am not arguing that the church is perfect. Paul writes to the Colossians encouraging them to put up with each other and to forgive one another precisely because the church is not perfect in terms of how we relate to one another and the world.
Brad removes any responsibility the sinner has for responding to the gospel and places the blame soley on the church and its methods and programming, without regard to the lost sinner and his total inability to respond to the gospel unless and until the Word preached produces faith for salvation. In this regard, the SINNER is the problem, not the church.
In other words, it seems that in Brad’s view the church’s problem isn’t a spiritual one, but a cultural one. The church as “problem” is solved simply by the church redefining itself in the image of the culture. If sinners are not responding to the message of the gospel as proclaimed by the church, I would disagree that it is the church and its traditions that are the problem. It is the sinner and his spiritual blindness that is the problem.
So please don’t interpret what I said in the post above as suggesting that the church in its present form is problem free. The church has been purchased by the blood of its Savior; the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is in process; and at the last trump Christ shall present the Church to Himself as a glorious church, holy and without blemish, not having spot or wrinkle (Ephesians 5:25-27). In the mean time, the church certainly is flawed in many ways. But it terms of the church being the problem that stands in the way of lost sinners, simply because it sings hymns instead of rock worship, is ludicrous!
i understand that God can and does use our shortcomings to accomplish his will.
But i think the key is that he “uses” our shortcomings… not that our shortcomings are his “will.” especially in respect to sin.
as grudem points out… there is God’s moral will, and God’s sovereign will. And we see many many many times throughout scripture God responding to mans disobedience/obedience. He prolongs judgement for a repentent heart, and he offers mercy for those who would turn from their sin. Sometimes you see them accept the offer, and God relents.. other times they refuse the offer, and judgement comes… do you honestly think God wouldn’t have relented if they would have repented?
The point is this.. We are always trying to correctly articulate the balance between free will and the predestination of God. If i can add a thought to this articulation it is this: We can take God’s best for our life, and make a mess of it. Did God foreknow it.. yes, but was it is moral will… no. Like D.L. Moody said.. the world has yet to see what God can do through a man who is wholy dedicated to Him. And i would agree.. we, by our faithfulness can allow God a better vessel to work through. I understand that sometimes God will find a Gideon.. but this is not the norm.. if only we all had the discipline of our Lord or Paul, wouldnt the gospel have spread with greater fire? Why does satan attack us so much, are we not dangerous to him?
In light of God’s predestination, i still stand on the fact that the church (its leaders etc) have in fact got in the way and prolonged much of the work God has wanted to do in this world.
Doesn’t Paul Edwards keep mentioning how the “church today is producing a bunch of biblically illiterate believers?” Well what is implied in that statement??? That the church is responsible for doing something wrong that affects both believers and non believers..
God bless you all!
For Don:
Type your post in Word or other editing program and use it’s spell checker. Then copy and paste it into the comments box.
“Tell me theold, old story of unseen thigs above.
Of Jesus and His glory, of Jesus and His love.
Tell me the story simply, as to a little child,
For I am weak and weary, and helpless and defiled.
Tell me the story slowly, that I may take it in,
That wonderful redemption, God’s
remedy for sin.
Tell me the story often, for I forget so soon;
The early dew of morning has passed away at noon.
Tell me the story softly, with earnest tones and grave:
RememberI’am the sinner whom Jesus came to save.
Tell me the story always, if you would really be,
In any time of trouble, a comforter to me.
Tell me the same old story when you have cause to fear
That this world’s empty glory is costing me too dear.
Yes, and when that world,s gloryis dawning on my soul,
Tell me the old old story: “Christ Jesus makes me whole.”
Tell me the old, old story,tell me the old, old story,
Tell me the old, old story, of Jesus and His love.
I wish I knew how to spellcheck these. I trust we will not need this option in glory.
Jason, I would like to add to your thought process and offer some additional perspective. The church as a local group of belivers and the Church as the body of all belivers are both institutions of God,and hence we need to be carefull in a condemnation of such. What I think you mean is the local church has flawed leadership, which in most cases I would agree. But remember, God choose to use man within our shortcommings to accomplish His will. He is never hindered by our lack of judgement or abilities, but is further glorified by them. The Church universal will not nor cannot be prevailed against by satan or any host of demonic influence without firstly the forknowledge of God, secondly, the permission of God and thirdly, in the will of God.”Whom he did foreknow He did also predestinate”.
The church local is subject to the same with freewill of man in the mix. We all indeed, miss the mark. Pastors and lay workers alike, due to the depraved nature of the flesh. Some can control it better than others, however ” there is none righteous no not one”, “all of our righteous is as filthy rags” “there is none that doeth good”. But even with these truths, there is nothing that occurs outside the forknowledge of God. The Word of God foretells us that this great falling away will happen, and I believe this is what we are seeing now, and have been for some time now. Also, this does not negate our own responsibility to walk in the way of righteousness. We as men of flesh are prone to wander, and prone to leave the God we love. In spite of all of it the plan is on schedule, just as planed before the foundations of the earth were laid. Here is how I handle it, when it my turn to come to the plate, I stand up, wait for the pitch and swing the bat, sometimes I miss and sometimes I hit a good one. Sometimes I fall down and get dirty. “A just man falleth seven times and riseth up again”. [the key is get up one more time than you fall], I do what I can, I repent when I need to, and I rest in the promise that my Elder Brother has my life in His hand. You know why? “For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded, that He is able, to keep that, which I’ve commited, unto Him against that day”!! Stand up and enjoy the show, we are more than conquers, we have already won, it is not up to us and our ability, it by His power and His might that we stand. Satan knows this and hates it, resit him and he will flee from you. See ya at the last trump, Jason, what are you planning to have for desert at the supper? I want to have a view of Jesus, face to face, and touch His hands, and fall at His feet and fully understand worship. Glory to God!!!!
You said:
By process of elimination it is the CHURCH that is the problem, even though the Church was founded by Jesus Christ with the promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. The problem with the church is that it doesn’t know how to relate and it is using outmoded methods to accomplish the task of drawing lost sinners. Nothing is ever mentioned about the theological truth that lost sinners in their natural state will never find the true gospel of the cross attractive (1 Corinthians 1, 2).
It is true that the HS is who is responsible for the work to convict the believer. But look at church history, moreso before the reformation… and tell me do you think the church is not capable of making a mistake to keep people away??
why are you so scared of the idea that the church has something to do with people staying away from it? Yes, on one hand, God is building the church, but on the other hand, he’s using us falable people to do it.
Don’t you realize that sometimes falable people get outside the “wise counsel” of the Lord, take some matters into their own hands in the “name of Jesus” and can create a church atmosphere that scares people away?? Aren’t we the ones in the “church” who gossip, slander, have affairs that are publicied on TV for all to see ???
Don’t minimize the fact that the CHURCH is in fact responsible for many peoples bad taste of christianity left in their mouths.
That does not nulify the fact that they are unregenerate and don’t have a mind for godly things. But at the same time, God chose to use people to proclaim his messsage.. and people have been screwing it up for hundreds of years (and sometimes a few get it right).
One final thought… i once heard Swindol say this: God has a plan for you… but sometimes its our own stubborness, mistakes, and lack of discipline/obedience that prevent God’s work from being fulfilled in proper order. In other words, God will accomplish his plan, but sometimes we can prolong that from happening.
Paul,
Much easier now that we don’t have to login to WordPress.
It’s amazing that this pastor blaims the church for the reason why people are not attending church. This give credence to the circus’s that we have on Sunday’s all around the country. I also find it interesting that he says it’s not the “Message”. I am willing to be the message he preaches is a watered down version of the gospel. Very few Pastors have been able to have a Megachruch without preaching a different gospel. Paul, have you heard of or read Dan Kimball’s book, They like Jesus but not the church? I posted some comments on my blog about it the other day. We need to stop letting the unregenate mind determine what they want in the church and let the word of God determine it.
The answer I have is simple, “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” and keep our hearts eye looking towards the northern sky and our ears tuned in for the last trump. “What a day that will be, when my Savior I shall see, when I look upon His face, the One who saved me by His grace, when He takes me by the hand and leads to the promised land, what a day, glorious day, that will be” “Through the streets of that city in a robe of spotless white…” I’ve been ready for nearly 37 years now, my hope is that I can bring some more with me. “My hpoe is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness…” As I said before, if it were possible, I would get saved all over again, I’ve never gotten over it.
The problem is the church. The church that thinks that God needs them to get the Gospel out. God doesn’t need our help. He chooses to have us help him. Christ’s true church is also responsible. I often hear people complain about the state of the society today and express their opinions as to what the reasons are. I don’t hear ideas. I don’t hear people saying what we need to do to fix the problem. I freely admit that I don’t have the answer either, other than to keep praying that if it’s God’s will for him to show me that He will. I do know that the church has to stop complaining and start doing.
Paul, I would like to add some food for thought. Without getting into a discussion over the Vine, branches, and the grafted branches,I suggest that we have been forwarned that the time will come when mans hearts will grow cold even to the point of “without natural affection”. I beleive one of the reasons for this does lie at the feet of many of a local church ministry. To quote a well known pastor of days past, whom you know, “When was the last time you heard a message on Hell?, I don’t mean a passing comment or two, but a message that held us so close to the edge of the fire we can smell the brimstone” We are no longer rescueing the perishing from a hell that is hot, an eternity that is forever. What are we saved from? The “wages” of sin. Secondly When was the last time we heard a message on the majesty of the lovly Lord Jesus, I dont mean just in passing, but one in which a church member would fall in love with him all over again and if it were possible, get saved a second time just to embrace once again afresh, a touch of the Master’s hand, and the lost felt so lost and so away from God that tears of conviction would stream down his or her face and be compelled to receive the Savior the preacher was describing. If and when we can find this message again, then I suggest we will grow by conversions rather than letters of transfer and the pews will be full gain. Do you remember the Sunday Am services when 30 or 40 walked the isle in responce to a message like this? I do!!! And just the remembrance of this excitement leads me to want to go get my bucket, fill it with water, and charge Hell’s door. Oh God, please give us some preachers who once again view their flock as on the edge of a Christ-less eternity.