The mainstream media wants you to believe that a conservative evangelical church deep in the Bible belt has refused to bury a Gulf War veteran because he was gay. Some in the Christian media want you to believe that the church hasn’t shown the love of Jesus to a dead man’s family. Neither is anywhere near the truth.
Here are the facts. High Point Church, a non-denominational church in Arlington, Texas, had been praying for Cecil Sinclair after Cecil’s brother, Lee (the only member of the Sinclair family who was a member of the church) requested prayer for his brother who had been awaiting a heart transplant. When Cecil Sinclair’s health became critical last week, the family called a staff member from the church to be with them at the hospital. In the hospital, in the moments immediately following Mr. Sinclair’s death, the family asked the staff member if the church would be open to holding a memorial service for their loved one. The staff member assured them the church would be available to help the family in any way appropriate, a response any pastor would give in that situation.
Cecil Sinclair was not a member of High Point Church, yet this church selflessly and sacrificially ministered to his family in the wake of his death, preparing and delivering food for the family and one hundred relatives and friends, along with many other expressions of kindness. The church offered to produce a video retrospective of Mr. Sinclair’s life for use during the memorial service. When the family provided the pictures to the church it was then that the church learned of their intention to make the memorial service a celebration of Cecil Sinclair’s gay lifestyle. One of the photos provided by the family “showed a man with his hand touching another man’s genitalia,” along with other inappropriate photos, according to a statement on the High Point Church website.
The family also requested that “an associate of an openly homosexual choir” officiate at the service and that the homosexual choir sing during the service. “It became clear to the church staff that the family was requesting an openly homosexual service at High Point Church – which is not our policy to allow,” the statement on the church’s website said. After initially agreeing to host the memorial service, the church informed the family it could not do so based on the direction they were taking service. The church then secured – and paid for – another location for the memorial service, which the family declined. The church also produced the memorial video without the inappropriate photos.
High Point Church did not refuse to host the funeral of a gay man, as is being widely reported in the mainstream media. The church refused on biblical principle to allow a celebration of the homosexual lifestyle in its sanctuary, a decision most theologically sound churches would make under similar circumstances.
It’s not surprising to me that the mainstream media would misrepresent the facts. But the response of some in Christian media has been even more disappointing. High Point Church and its leaders are being accused by Christians of not showing love to the family by not hosting a celebration of his gay lifestyle. I suppose visiting Cecil in the hospital, sitting with his family after he died, preparing meals for the family, paying the rent on an alternative venue, and producing an appropriate memorial video don’t qualify as “showing love” to the family? Others are calling it a “missed opportunity” for the church to reach out to the gay community. Still others have suggested that because homosexuality is a sin like any other sin, the church’s decision not to host a gay man’s memorial would prohibit it from holding memorial services for anyone because, after all, we are all sinners.
These people are missing the point. The church did not refuse to host the memorial service because Cecil Sinclair was gay. They refused to host the memorial service because the family was turning it into a celebration of the man’s sin – his homosexual lifestyle. Churches and ministers bury sinners every day. But we don’t highlight their sin on the big screen while we are doing it. We exalt Christ. We proclaim the gospel. And we celebrate the triumph of the cross over sin and death, none of which the family had in mind for Cecil Sinclair’s memorial service.
High Point Church’s principled and biblical decision was the right one, as is evidenced not only by just how unpopular it is with the main stream media, but also by the knee-jerk and ill-informed response of today’s culturally-savvy, but biblically illiterate Christians.
Listen here to Paul’s interview with Pastor Gary Simons of High Point Church.
I challenge Hudson to read the whole bible. It is just like a mystery story, you cannot just read the front you cannot just read the middle you cannot just read the end. It would make no sense that way, yet that is what people do. The bible is a book that tells how the world began and how it ends. It is a book that has millions of other books written about its meaning. It has lasted longer & sold more than any other book in the histroy of the world. In fact books now adays are obsolete in six months and philophers are still debating the meaning of life. The bible tells you the meaning of life. Even tho the bible is quite complicated it is very simple, you must beleive God. This same theme is througout the bible, yet over and over they forgot God (the “I AM”).
The thing you need to know is that what God has wriiten is for your own good. It is like parents that love their child, they will not let their three year old child eat candy all day. We love to spoil them and sure it tastes good, but in the end the child would die if they do not eat their vegtables and other nurients. God does know what is best for you as the loving parents know.
Which brings me to the pork, when i was young, people died from eating raw pork and it is very hard on your digestive system.
Gentlemen
This argument is vein.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. I Corinthians 2:14
Without the empowering of the Holy Spirit none of us are able to interpret the Word of God.
I know, Paul, this gets real close to the crux of our debate!
I hope you enjoy this one! It’s free.
Hudson,
The problem doesn’t lie with the Bible, it lies with your interpretations of it (or maybe mis-interpretations might be a better term). Judging from the points you try to make, you use the same line of thinking that many people do when trying to debate Christianity – that one thing said in the Bible means only what you want it to mean, without regard to whether it is textually or contextually correct in light of the whole of Scripture. In the 5-step outline I gave above, you’re still stuck at #1, b/c you dont’ fully understand Scripture. You have to remember that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. He alone is the only perfect sacrifice for sin – that’s why sin offerings are no longer needed, b/c it has already been done. This doesn’t necessarily render what the OT said to be obsolete, but we are now under grace, not the Law, and our way to salvation is only through Christ. The Law was there to show us that we can’t perfectly keep it – not me, not you, not anyone – so it shows us we are all sinners.
No one is “picking” on gays, this just happened to be the topic of this particular blog. The Bible, in fact, doesn’t say to “pick” on anyone, but it does say that we are to stand for truth, and that we are not to support what is clearly sin in the Bible.
It’s hard to tell where you’re coming from. What’s your stance on what the church did? Was it OK, or not? Do you believe homosexuality is OK, or not, and why? Those would be helpful questions to have a straightforward answer to, if you’re willing.
Paul,
Nice try at obfuscation, but you have not refuted my original point. It is a simple point: the Bible contains all kinds of strange, archaic, and immoral advice and rules. You hide behind the text of the Bible, but cannot defend its literal meaning in its entirety. I picked the above passage regarding slavery quite at random, because there are entire books devoted to analyzing the multitudes of such barbarity found in the bible. Your assertion that slavery was different then is an absurdity. The gladiators who died en masse in the Coliseum were slaves–I suppose one could argue that such a fate is better than a lifetime of working under the whip of a Southern plantation owner. If you choose to ignore secular history, then simply look at what the Bible itself allows in the form of slavery: selling one’s daughter (contextually for sex, inter alia). (See Exodus 21:7-11)
I could just as easily have quoted scripture calling for the execution of disobedient children, blasphemers, and nonvirgin brides.
What do you say about the fact that the Bible calls for the execution of those who work on the Sabbath? (See: Exodus 31:12-15). Leviticus 12 says that women are supposed to live in a tent after giving birth, and must give a burnt offering to the priest for their uncleanliness. I would be willing to bet that nobody in your church abides either rule.
You are absolutely right that the Bible condemns homosexuality. In fact, the Bible orders that they be killed for laying with one another. (See: Leviticus 20:13). Just Google “homosexuals and the Bible” and you will conclude that Paul is much too tolerant for the tastes of the Bible’s authors. The typical citing of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as the statement on homosexuality is the softer message (by the way, read Lot’s story more closely and with an open mind and ask yourself whether you would have offered up your daughters over the strangers). Leviticus is a smorgasboard for the bizarre–read it and Numbers 31 if you need some perspective.
So the question is why pick on gays when the Bible says to pick on a whole host of other people that you do not pick on?
Mame
Forty years ago the churches were objecting this issue as they are now. The inability of this life style to procreate is the very reason of the shoving of it in the faces of us all. I suggest this is also part of the same “sexual revolution” that is driving our entertainment industry. Thus the issue that Paul so aptly addressed in this weeks program. May I quote once again; “for we wrestle not against flesh and blood….” We must recognize WHO the battle is against prior to any victory, and then Who is capable of securing a victory! Protect your own.
The reason churches are objecting now is because the militant gays are insisting on pushing their way into our domain of marraige and trying to change marriage and society as we have known it for thousands of years. Just the gay parades pushing obscenity in our face and trying to include our children is very objectionable. I hardly noticed my gay and lesbian neighbors before this all started. Maybe to talk to them or to have coffee at their business. But now everything is getting “out of hand” and must be stopped. No normal person i know likes to flaunt their private sex preference like gays do. I am not in the least interested in your sex life so please spare us all and do not shove it in our face & on our children.
It’s amazing how many people on here talk as though they know the Bible so well, when by what they say they CLEARLY do not.
Approaching it logically:
1) Do you believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, and is truthful and infallible, presenting His message to us? If YES, go to #2; if NO, stop, b/c you first have to conquer this objection before you have any basis to proceed, otherwise it’s arguing apples and oranges.
2) Does the whole of Scripture clearly demonstrate that homosexual lifestyles (whether men or women) are considered sin? If YES, go to #3; if NO, stop, b/c you haven’t read or fully understood the whole of Scripture, which mentions this in both the OT and NT pretty clearly.
3) If God considers something sinful, should Christians who claim to follow Him also consider it sinful? If YES, go to #4; if NO, stop, b/c you have then said that it doesn’t matter what God thinks, it matters what YOU think, and that would then make your claims to be a Christian untrue.
4) If we consider homosexuality sinful, should a funeral service/memorial that celebrates a sinful lifestly be condoned by other Christians, especially if it takes place in a church? If YES, go to #5; if NO, stop, b/c then you’re condoning open sin which you know God doesn’t support.
5) This church did the right thing.
It’s really not that hard, folks.
I’m beginning to understand the..”God gave them over to a reprobate mind”..much more clearly now. I must admit, in the past that portion in Romans was a “hard saying” for me, but these discussions have shed a great light on it for me.
Thanks guys for the lesson in God’s Word. When God gives a person over, who else is there?…… “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life”.
Hudson,
There is no equivalency in Scripture between slavery and homosexual practice. Scripture no where commands the owning of slaves and in many places encourages the release of slaves and in all places demands respect and care for slaves. Our modern image of slavery circa the 18th and 19th centuries in no way parallels what slavery in biblical times was like.
On the other hand, the word of God in both Old and New Testaments clearly prohibits same-sex unions and views them as destable. To suggest that the same Bible that speaks of slavery positively and homosexuality negavtively somehow negates what the Bible says about homosexuality is to raise a straw man. Focus your argument on the fact that the Bible does indeed condemn homosexual practice irregardless of what it also says about slavery, which is a seperate issue altogether.
As I said above, there are many things said in the bible that the Church chooses to ignore. Your bible classes ignore the absurd, factually inconsistent, violent, crazed, and illegal acts that are advocated by the Bible. Don’t take my word on it, go to http://www.evilbible.com, and then compare the passages to your own bible. The point I am making is not that you cannot believe in God or that the Bible has relevance, but, as a rational member of a 21st Century democracy, you must be aware of the implications of living a “biblical life.”
Below is a sample. Check it against your own bible. Then go to the above website and check some more. Then ask yourself why churches single out the treatment of gays as opposed to banning pork and subjugating women (see Timothy).
Slavery Allowed
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Just to make it perfectly clear, the relevance to this debate is why do you ignore certain passages and elevate others? Take a look at the cherished Ten Commandments (which are merely plagiarized from the Egyptian Book Of The Dead), and note that we are not to covet thy neighbors man servant (read slave). Slavery was accepted then, and the bible clearly enshrines it because its authors enshrined it.
The statement “wondering why Gays want to be part of the church” is also facinating to me. The Gay agenda is to have acceptance & apporval from everyone. It would not matter if every church member in the world approved of their sexual preference. God makes it very clear that He hates sin and it will be punished. Many times punishment comes on earth, but after death they will be judged and go to Hell. That is a terrible place where you are all alone in the dark, hot and thristy. God will NOT be present there, it is for demons. Gays do not realize who God is!! He is everywhere, in the running water at the cool brook. He is in the smell of pine trees, He is the beauty in all things (as the Diamond, Ruby and Emerald). And He is so much more than I can describe or even imagine. He is in everything good & that includes sex in marriage. He describes the realtionship of a Christian with Jesus (God) as a marriage and we will all be at the wedding feast in Heaven. Jesus is the groom, Christians are the bride. This is a sacred and Holy union. This is one of the reasons we object to Gays getting married. I tell you this because i do care & love you enough to warn you and share Gods great love for you.
I agree with High Point Church. I said it before and I will say it again. There is nothing “loving” letting people celebrate a sinful lifestyle. Which is what the family of this vet wanted to do and per eyewitnesses, they did do at his memoral. Love does not mean you shouldn’t correct or rebuke sinful behavior of people around us.
In fact, 2 Timothy 3: 16-17 says “All Scripture is God-breathed and useful for TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING and training in rightousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (NIV) and 1 Corinthians 16: 13-14 says “Be on guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong. Do everything in love.” (NIV). God’s word shows us that what we must “do everything in love”, but that does not mean giving into being used to promote sin. God’s Word says we must “correct” and “rebuke” for the person’s benefit, and not to be mean or hateful but to show real “love” by helping those who are lost and in the dark to see the light of God’s Truth. That’s real love! And it is what we ALL need, everyone (even me) has there areas of problems that need God’s saving correction and forgiveness in our life. Not being torreant of wrong behaviors, but standing firm in God’s Word that shows we are all sinful and in need of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ. The pastor of High Point Church was showing 1 Corinthains 16: 13-14 as he had courage by standing firm to God’s Word and not giving into the P.C. of the world to say OK we will go against what God tells us is wrong. It wasn’t the pastors own words he was stand strong on, it was the Word of God.
I may not agree with everything that the mega church here at High Point Church says, but it’s stand to not promote a sinful lifestyle was the right thing to do. Not supporting an immoral lifestyle is not being Hateful, but showing Love. Those who do not believe the Bible as God’s True Word, will not understand that and only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes, hearts and minds of those in the dark. Sin comes in many forms, we ALL need Jesus forgiveness.
Paul you were right when you bascilly said on your show that all the negitive attacks against this church and Christians on this subject is a true sign that God’s Word is touching a nerve in this world of sin. Keep up the stand for God’s Turth in these matters and God Bless.
Sin is created in the heart. The act is a mere byproduct of what the heart is feeling. Therefore the actions of someone can not be judged good/bad unles you know the persons heart. It is always better to be the one who gets stepped on in Jesus’s name then to step on someone in the name of Jesus.
I agree Lesley, High Point had the right to refuse to have the memorial service . I do wish that they had handled the situation better and been more honest up front , minus all the smoke screen of ‘ The glorification of the homosexual lifestyle and ‘lewd ‘pictures etc. He was gay and I think they did not want a gay man’s service at their church.
There are so many things in this life that will always be debatable and meet controversy, but only when the trumpet sounds will the truth be known, for many it will be to late. Each Organization whether it be a church, mosque, temple ,the Trump Building, the Yankee stadium all have rules that govern them, they maybe bylaws , house rules for some and the Bible for others, if that is what they are mandated to follow, then they have all rights to do so. If you don’t like what the captain of ship has to say or wants to enforce, get off the ship and stop complaining. May God touch everyone and reveal his truth to them.
I think that if people really understood the Christians who really understood the Bible… they would understand that Christians do not hate gays.
Again… a REAL Christian does not hate GAYS, or ANYONE for that matter (by real Christian I mean one who is filled with the Spirit and walking according to the teachings of Scripture)
REAL Christians don’t hate GAYS… but sometimes there are Christians who aren’t REALLY practicing their Christianity who hate GAYS
Sometimes there are also REAL Christians practicing REAL Christianity who LOVE gays but are perceived to HATE them because they point out that the Bible says its a sin
I think this is the most important point… a REAL Christian who is practicing REAL Christianity will NEVER HATE A GAY PERSON… BUT… they will many times be PERCEIVED as hating simply because they point out that the Bible says its a sin… fair enough?
I am a REAL Christian who practices REAL Christianity. I do not HATE gays… but I know from reading the bible that the Bible says its a sin.. just like it says my lust is a sin… who am I to condemn??? I can’t condemn… but I can point out the facts.. the Bible says its a sin… what is so hard to see about that… who cares if Jesus ever directly mentioned it.. the whole Bible is God’s word… Jesus is God… hence, if the bible is God’s word.. then the Bible is Jesus’ word. Since its mentioned in the Bible as sin.. then Jesus actually is saying its sin…
Paul,
You are right . Pictures as you have decribed would be inappropriate , but I think that is stretching the facts. There was a picture showing Cecil and his brother John in Hawaii some years ago , fully clothed , one with his arm outstretched, hand open in front of the other brother. It wasn’t what would be called ‘lewd’ by any strech of the imagination .Any picture that was objectionable to the church could have been removed for the service. I would imagine the family would have been alright with that. As for the all gay choir, Cecil had been a member of this national known choral group and as Dr. Seelig said ,sang ‘Amazing Grace’ hardly a gay pride song.
May,
The family is obviously obsessed with Gary Sinclair’s bedroom and they wanted to put it on display (at least what goes on in the bedroom) by showing him engaged in various lewd acts, including holding another man’s genatalia in his. That picture is not appropriate in ANY setting, let alone a church.
Tom,
If you will listen – really listen – to the interview I had with Pastor Simons, you will learn that it was a reporter who brought up the murder analogy. Pastor Simons is right when he says that the sin of homosexuality is the same as any other sin, including adultery, stealing, drunkeness, and even muder. Pastor Simons wasn;t saying that homosexuality IS murder; he was making the point that ALL of us have sinned, and NONE of us should have our sin on display at a memorial service. The actual point was that no one would expect to see pictures of homocides at the memorial for a murderer. Therefore, no one should expect to see pictuures of homosexual acts at a memorial for a homosexual. Homocide and homosxuality are both SIN and should not be celebrated.
The church isn’t upset that the family’s side of the story is being presented in the media. The church is rightly defending itself against the charge of the media that they denied a funeral to a man because he was gay. THIS IS NOT TRUE. They refused to allow a celebration of the homosexual lifestyle in their church. There is a difference.
Paul,
I think Hudson was probably refering to Ted Haggad in the hypocrisy of his situation. He preached against homosexuals, but was one himself. You know kinda like Shakespear said,’ me thinks thou doth protest too much’.
What exactly do you mean by his bedroom was on display and they (the Sinclair family ) were obsessed with his bedroom?