Pagitt at 4:00 pm

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Emergent founder Doug Pagitt is my guest at 4:00 pm ET TODAY. Stream it LIVE here.

Doug Pagitt is a self-described “social and theological entrepreneur,” the founder of Solomon’s Porch in Minneapolis, MN, a founder of Emergent Village, and owner of a wellness center and production company. His mission in life, according to his website, is “seeking to find creative, entrepreneurial, generative ways to join in the hopes, dreams and desires God has for the world.” He thinks twenty years is a long time, which isn’t surprising when you consider Pagitt has written whole books on why things that were written 2,000 years ago are “foolish” and “expired” in a contemporary context.

Doug is the author of A Christianity Worth Believing (Jossey-Bass 2008), Church Re-Imagined (Zondervan 2004), Preaching Re-Imagined (Zondervan 2005), and BodyPrayer (Waterbrook 2005). He is the co-editor of An Emergent Manifesto of Hope (Baker Books 2007). He has contributed to numerous books, including The Post-Evangelical (Zondervan 2003), Practioners (Regal 2006), and Listening To The Beliefs of the Emerging Church (Zondervan 2007).

Dr. John MacArthur says of Doug Pagitt:

“Pagitt is a Universalist…It’s most helpful to go back and kind of recast how we view these people. He’s not a pastor. He’s not a Christian. That’s not a church.”

Hear my full interview with Dr. John MacArthur on the emergent church: Part One, Part Two

RELATED LINKS:
Doug Pagitt’s Blog 

87 thoughts on “Pagitt at 4:00 pm”

  2. Wow, I miss alot while being away on vacation……..a tug a war, a meeting, and so much more.

    If you guys ever come south to Ohio, give me a call. Until then, I’ll be at the gym working out for the rematch on the tug a war…..

  3. OK, here’s a Google Group for offline discussions of this stuff:

    http://groups.google.com/group/godandculture

    Anyone is free to join, and I’ve copied Paul on the info so he can ultimately administer it if he wants.

    If I were you, I’d change my notification settings so you don’t get emails everytime someone posts; there is no way to do that globally. 🙁

  4. Ed, maybe Paul will post an entry about it here on this site and we can just post away about it. I’ve set up a Google Groups thing for my church to have book discussions and such, but it hasn’t worked out so hot yet…

    Nancy, McKnight is doing his part to harmonize the different sides and help each party understand what the other is really saying rather than getting bogged down with misunderstandings and invectives. His blog site, http://www.JesusCreed.org, is a good example of how that is possible, and I’ve found a number of things in his daily posts to be very helpful to my growth.

  5. Pix, I used MEL, the Mich Electronic Library. It is being ordered by my local library from Spring Arbor College, which cooperates with MEL.

    Challies.com has group read of a given book. Get the book, we all read it, and comment as we read through. Might be a good project for Bo to initiate.

  6. I realize we can’t know all he believes from one interview…but McKnight’s material is definitely NOT Pagitt’s material… He didn’t SOUND objectionable from the interview.

  7. Ed from eastpointe, I am in your library system, are you saying they are ordering the book or that they have it and you are requesting it?

    BTW, the library is a wonderful “liberal” system that we have, isn’t it?

  8. Thanks much Ed! I think a lot of times folks “violently agree” and the enemy just sits back and laughs.

  9. Bo, Thanks for those kind, calm, and reasonable words. I ordered McKnight’s book, Community Called Atonement, through the library system, he sounds like someone who can add to my faith, not replace it. And can count on me to pray for your church planting efforts.

  10. Pixel…thanks for dividing us up in “teams”…If we were actually in a “tug of war” some of your guys wouldn’t be trying very hard…from my observation that is….*: ) Judgementalism only works when our discernment is “REALLY KEEN” *: )

  11. Well, I think we have hashed this out folks, we have tsgodguy, myself and Bo against Greg, st(btw you sound lot like a guy that used to post named Don), Nancy, Ed and I think Paul would be on your side. In tug of war you would win, but that doens’t mean you are right. HAHA
    There is a new thought in christianity and for those willing to explore it and carefully consider the issues, it can actually be a freeing experiance. I know that might be hard for this in the boxed in, tightly package faith that many of us adhere to but I encourage all to try it.
    This is a walk of faith and if were box in God too much we might find we are walking on the wrong path. “There is a way which seems right unto man, but the end thereof is death.” Emergents(although I don’t fully embrace everything) can quote scripture too……. (that is for st)

  12. Ed, I plan to d/l the McKnight interview as well – I thought he did a pretty good job of making deep things clear and as accessible as possible; his books tend to be the same way. Hopefully we can all at least agree that we’re “playing golf”; then we can discuss which “clubs” make the most sense for the situation.

    I’ll have to listen to the Pagitt interview you’re referring to. I’ve only read a few McLaren and Bell books, so Paul’s interview w/Doug is the first I’ve really heard from the “horse’s mouth”. I didn’t have any problem with the Solomon’s Porch web site, and it actually mirrors in many ways a church plant I’m assisting in Farmington (prayers always appreciated). I have no intention of going along with the universalists, whether they like the label “emergent” or something else. I suspect that there are indeed emergents who are not universalist.

    BTW, if God decides to let people into the kingdom who don’t fit what I expected, I fully bow to His judgment. For now, I encourage people to follow the way of Jesus, tasting and seeing that God indeed is good and that their old strategies for living are dead-ends that can’t satisfy for long. That’s an unpacked way to say “repent, trust Jesus, and have everlasting life.”

  13. Bo, I am glad Paul had McKnight on, I am sure it is for our good here. I listened to what I could, in the midst of family obligations. He has some ideas that need to be considered, and it did sound “put on the bottom shelf” for thickheaded folks like me, and I am going to d/l and listen to the broadcast again.

    But I cannot embrace the emergents if they cannot clean out their own house from the likes of Pagitt. He is truly a “check your brain at the door and come on in” type based on the interview with Way of the Master.

  14. b
    Was it not you who gave me the lecture on the archaic terms used in the bible issue. I thought you were addressing this blog from the “modern” usage point of view. I was unaware you still accepted the “original audience” usage as valid today. I accept your explanation. Not sure I get which word, and which proof text you’re referring to in second paragraph.

    Is this what you suggest?

    (1.) An injury or wrong done to one (1 Samuel 25:31; Romans 5:15).

    (2.) A stumbling-block or cause of temptation (Isaiah 8:14; Matthew 16:23; 18:7). Greek skandalon, properly that at which one stumbles or takes offence. The “offence of the cross” (Galatians 5:11) is the offence the Jews took at the teaching that salvation was by the crucified One, and by him alone. Salvation by the cross was a stumbling-block to their national pride.

    Plural meanings. Thanks for the clarification of which one you were using at the time.

    “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more”

    KJV Dictionary – remember
    Bible software

    For a complete Bible study software package with over one million cross-references combined, try SwordSearcher: designed for believing Bible study. SwordSearcher has tens of thousands of topical and encyclopedic entries all linked to scripture, fully searchable and indexed by both topic and verse reference. Includes Webster’s 1828 Dictionary, commentaries, Bible dictionaries, books, and more.

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    REMEMBER

    REMEM’BER, v.t. Low L. rememoror; re and memoror. See Memory.

    1. To have in the mind an idea which had been in the mind before, and which recurs to the mind without effort.

    We are said to remember any thing, when the idea of it arises in the mind with the consciousness that we have had this idea before.

    2. When we use effort to recall an idea, we are said to recollect it. This distinction is not always observed. Hence remember is often used as synonymous with recollect, that is, to call to mind. We say, we cannot remember a fact, when we mean, we cannot recollect it.

    Remember the days of old. Deut. 32.

    3. To bear or keep in mind; to attend to.

    Remember what I warn thee; shun to taste.

    4. To preserve the memory of; to preserve from being forgotten.

    He said “remember no more”~~Sorta like, “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.”
    (I apologize for being voluminous again as I was once rebuked for.)

    Am I edifying yet? Its working for me! Do you know exactly how far the distance is between the East and the West? That gives me peace.

    Have a good evening my brother.

  16. st/d, I’ll leave the last word for you, but I do have to clarify what I meant by “offend” for your sake and for others. In the scriptures where it talks about offending someone, a form of the Greek word “skandalizo” was used; it meant “to trip someone up” or “to cause to stumble”; it did NOT mean what our current usage does, which is to hurt someone’s feelings. Jesus hurt many people’s feelings, but he never scandalized them, he never caused them to stumble in their search for the truth.

    I do try to speak in truth with love, full of grace but seasoned with salt. I’m not always successful, but that is my aim. If I handle it that way and someone’s feelings are hurt in the process, then it is their problem (though they are of course welcome to come to me as recommended by the teachings of Jesus and let me know of the perceived “offense”; then we can discuss it and hopefully come to an agreement).

    It would be more edifying for everyone.if you studied what the word meant to the original audience and in its context than to assume a 400 year old translation is still accurately communicating it and then posting out-of-context proof texts as though you’re supported by scripture when you aren’t. That’s my attempt at “full of grace” (truly wanting to help you and benefit others) while “seasoned with salt” (not compromising the truth but intending it with all the love I can must for you). I hope you take it that way, but that’s your choice.

  17. I did not ask you to “whitewash” anything. That would be the same as a lie. Your comment was at your own will. My recollection of that institution simply is not as yours. I spoke the truth as I knew it, for I witnessed many transformed lives. That church as others made a difference in the lives of thousands, contrary to your position. Matter of fact I had no knowledge of these matters you suggest transpired but was willing to accept that sin as in all Churches existed in this one as well. I really wish you had kept those matters to yourself if indeed true, but chose not to. Perhaps your comment of an earlier post was more true than I thought when you stated you cared very little if you offend someone. I do, and would never have considered placing these accusation in a format as this. Even if not all is as black as you paint it, the perception has already been given. I am sure the innocent parties will appreciate that disclosure, in the spirit of truth of coarse. I stay disheartened, in spite of your lack of concern for those I mentioned which I’m sure you will aptly inform me of.

  19. st/d,

    “The broad brush” you refer to is merely a listing of things not included in your depiction of the “glorious history” of that institution (and others you frequented of which I am familiar). However, it was not my full and complete version of reality. It was an honesty-check.

    Of course there was some discipleship that happened and of course there were some lives that were changed for the good because of (rather than in spite of) that institution. Praise God for that.

    My understanding of the passage you quote is that God doesn’t remember our sins “against us” any more (i.e., it’s not that he’s forgetful, but that he doesn’t hold grudges and condemn us any more a la Romans 8).I believe I demonstrated that to you at a certain wedding where others could not. Same goes for the institution in question – I’m not bitter and grudge-holding, but I also won’t whitewash (pun intended) their history.

    It’s to the glory of God that He (and we) forgive such people, but that forgiveness doesn’t mean I condone what they did or go blank about it.

  20. I was referring to a multitude of churches which did include the one you so passionately paint and all you are able to see is this one. There were many and are still are some that fill this description. The fact is however that at this very place I did hear these teachings.
    ~~~ I’ve quite “gotten past it” and forgiven those involved~~~~
    No offense intended, but I am more than thankful that the forgiveness granted by our Father is not fashioned after the model set forth in your post.
    And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    What surprises me is the broad brush used in your rendition. Is this the end result of the true discipleship you reference?

    I will try to work on my dishonesty, I guess it goes with depravity.

  24. It’s a small congregation trying to rebuild after many years of stagnancy (you know, the old “church lifecycle thing”), but the teaching is solid, the worship is God-honoring, and the kingdom-mindedness has been a huge help to me. Are you on Facebook, btw?

  25. nice, I will check it out, I am currently in the hunt for a solid church that is christ centered and community minded, control centered and right wing minded. I am getting so tired of the right wing retoric at churches. STAY OUT OF POLITICS…sorry I get a little worked up.

  27. Bo, no you read wrong, that is tsfgodguy, he is from Marion OH. I am from the great city of Sterling Heights.

  28. Pix, yup, I’m in Farmington, MI. Did I read an earlier post correctly that you are in Ohio? If so, I may have driven past you on my way back from Cuyahoga Falls this morning…

  29. st/d, you clearly don’t get my “spirit” if you’re disheartened by it or think I’m angry. I’m filled with joy and gratitude because my Heavenly Father loves me, provides for me, and works EVERYTHING for my good (including my bad choices of which you are aware and bad environments of which you aren’t yet able to see honestly). I’ve quite “gotten past it” and forgiven those involved, but I can’t endure you painting such a glorious, Thomas Cole canvas about that place because it is incomplete and dishonest, and you should know better.

  30. “Pix, I’d love to meet you someday.”

    I might take you up on that offer, I need to converse with other believers, who don’t fall in common mold. Are you from the Detroit area?

  31. Bo re:comment #53:Bingo, I don’t have an issue with God just what man has done to him…..

  32. As I stated we have different memories, different experiences. Unfortunate filters of your own. Did you find any value there? Was there sinners? Yes, thus the need for our Savior. I too need Him daily. It is a continual cleansing process for me. It sort of is like Paul the aged, he started out as a sinner and ended up a chief sinner. My sin is ever before me. It’s all about how you see yourself. King David was called “a man after God’s own heart” in spite of his failures, and even Judas was called “friend” as he was betraying our Lord. That’s HOPE!
    Your spirit is disheartening, I hope some day you are able to get past this.~~~ As I said, only sinners saved by grace. To whom shall we go?
    “Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry:…”

  34. Bo said “I don’t label myself as “emergent”, I am merely defending them at this site where they are too often used as a straw man.”

    The very reason why I defend Obama on this site even though I am not a liberal, even though I am accused as such.

  35. Nancy, I agree that questioning and doubting God are at the core humankind’s disconnect with him, and it shows up not only in theology but also in fear and worry that Jesus warned against in Matt 6.

    However, I don’t think Pix, TSF, or I are advocating questioning God; instead, we’re advocating blindly accepting man-made interpretations of scripture that have been all but canonized in the last 500 years.

    We’re suggesting that, like the Pharisees of old, we modern-day Christian may have forced scripture to mean what we want it to mean and wear blinders that not only prevent, but forbid any other possible interpretation. But “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpration” Yet private interpretation is mainly what we have seen for a number of generations.

    Have you ever considered what the word “inspiration” itself means? When the apostle Paul decided to write a letter to a church – say Ephesus for example – how did that get “inspired” and not something Silas or Timothy or Barnabas wrote? What is the nature of this inspiration – how does it manifest itself? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all decided to write a collection of (historically accurate) stories about the life of Jesus the Messiah, each to a different audience; how did that get “inspired” and what does it mean? God certainly didn’t float down a scroll from on high, nor did he dictate into their ears or hearts or minds exactly what to write. So what did God do?

    I suggest God breathed LIFE into those words so that they were capable of reproducing after their kind. Whether spoken out loud, read in Greek, translated to English, put on a PowerPoint, paraphrased, turned into rebus, or what have you, there is a life-force at work in them that is non-existent in the writings of others (for example, Joseph Smith). Just like God IN-SPIRed man by breathing his SPIRit into him (see Job 32:8) and we continue to reSPIRe and perSPIRe until we eXPIRe (i.e., give up the spirit/ghost), so His word is ALIVE (inspired) and powerful and sharper than any two-edge sword. It is alive and it gives life. Let us worship Him in SPIRit and in truth, for both are essential.

  36. Pixel…

    Genesis 3
    The Man and Woman Sin
    1 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman,

    “Did God really say

    you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”
    ——————————————–
    Uhhh, simple review or READING of any version would reveal this is pretty much general understanding. Separations add are mine to make a point…all biblical flavors pretty much agree here, unless they do not hold to the creation story at all. Time doesn’t seem to be the issue here.

    I used the NLT version (very simple), but the Message version is pretty much the same…

    Satan first calls the Word of God…or God’s words…into question…and then moves straight to the LIE…

    Here is wisdom…read first…speak later…I really like to hear your comments…a bit of reading is always a good idea even so..on NEWS items as well…*: )

  37. Ed, I think Paul is one willing to test everything and hold on to what is good, just like the book we both say we love instructs. So I’d give Paul the credit for that, and I eagerly await the broadcast.

    Regarding “Why We’re Not Emergent”, from everything I’ve seen about that book, it is a disingenuous work by neo-reformed guys. And I’ll say it again… I don’t label myself as “emergent”, I am merely defending them at this site where they are too often used as a straw man. I consider myself missional, and I desire a holistic life in the kingdom of God based on the way of Jesus (good words that I did happen to find at Pagitt’s church site and are worth adopting).

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