4 thoughts on “Liveblogging Saddleback Forum: Taxes”

1. There is a great article in the Wall Street Journal that lays out the facts of Obama’s proposed crippling tax increases…

   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121910303529751345.html?mod=hps_us_at_glance_opinion

   b/BO, Obama isn’t being thoughtful, he is just ducking the fact that he is proposing massive tax increases during an economic downturn which is about the dumbest thing you can do. Let’s see, people are struggling and the economy is in rough shape, so let’s pull even more capital out of the private sector and dump it into Washington D.C. That is not creating long-term wealth, it is income redistribution pure and simple. If you take five pennies and shuffle them around, you still have five pennies. It may look different on the table but it is still the same thing. This is basic economics.

2. When you take money that has been earned by another person, isn’t that called theft? Why is it that we did not have an income tax until 1913? Didn’t the government need revenue prior to that date?

   Not all forms of taxation are immoral, but to tax a person’s livelihood is nothing short of sanctioned theft. Why is it assumed that the govenment is entitled to any of our money before we decide to spend it? The preable to the Constitution states, “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” Accordingly, the role of government is to:

   1. Establish justice. This is to provide a hierarchy in order to punish lawbreakers (criminal law).

   2. Insure domestic tranquility. This is to provide a hierarchy in order to mediate differences between parties (civil law).

   3. Provide for the common defense. This provides for the inacting of a military force to protect the homeland.

   4. Promote the general welfare. It has always struck me that this phrase does not say promote specific welfare. It is not the government’s place to provide for people’s standard of living in a direct way. 2 Thessalonians 3:10 says “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.” Our welfare is our own responsibility (pardon my filthy language!) and not society at large. Contrary to the actions of many in today’s society, work is not a four-letter word. Government needs to get out of the way of business, let free enterprise take it’s course and when the law is violated, see #1, and when parties have been injured, whether physically or financially, see #2.

   To me, the answer to taxes is very close to the answer to healthcare. Until we actually physically write the checks, we will not realize the actual pain of taxation. As it stands now, how many of us know the impact that heathcare cost and taxes has on our own personal economy or the national economy? The answer certain does not lie in giving more to government to mismanage.

   Do we need to help the poor? Of course we do! But doesn’t just giving money to someone only give the incentive to remain in the status quo? Why should I attempt to find work when I can get what I need from the government and not HAVE to work for it? This kind of disincentive is more cruel than helping a person realize the abilities that God has placed within them and giving them the OPPORTUNITY to use their gifts to benefit their families and society at large.

3. Here’s the transcript of Obama’s reply:
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   WARREN: OK. Taxes, this is a real simple question. Define rich. [ laughter ] I mean give me a number, Is it $50,000, $100,000, 200,000? Everybody keeps talking about who we’re going to tax. How can you define that?

   OBAMA: You know, if you’ve got book sales of $25 million, then you qualify.

   [ laughter ] [ applause ]

   OBAMA: Yes.

   WARREN: No, I’m not asking about me.

   OBAMA: Look, the – here’s how I think about it. Here’s how I think about it. And this is reflected in my tax plan. If you are making $150,000 a year or less, as a family, then you’re middle class or you may be poor. But $150,000 down you’re basically middle class, obviously depends on the region where you’re living.

   WARREN: In this region, you’re poor.

   OBAMA: Yes, well – depending. I don’t know what housing practices are going. I would argue that if you’re making more than $250,000, then you’re in the top three percent, four percent of this country. You’re doing well. Now, these things are all relative. And I’m not suggesting that everybody is making over $250,000 is living on easy street. But the question that I think we have to ask ourselves is, if we believe in good schools, if we believe in good roles, if we want to make sure that kids can go to college, if we don’t want to leave a mountain of debt for the next generation. Then we’ve got to pay for these things, they don’t come for free, and it is irresponsible.

   I believe it is irresponsible intergenerationally for us to invest or for us to spend $10 billion a month on a war and not have a way of paying for it. That, I think, is unacceptable. So nobody likes to pay taxes. I haven’t sold 25 million books but I’ve been selling some books lately, and so I write a pretty big check to Uncle Sam. Nobody likes it. What I can say is under the approach I’m taking, if you make $150,000 or less, you will see a tax cut. If you’re making $250,000 a year or more, you’re going to see a modest increase. What I’m trying to do is create a sense of balance, and fairness in our tax code. One thing I think we can all agree on, is that it should be simpler so that you don’t have all these loopholes and big stacks of stuff that you’ve got to comb through, which wastes a huge amount of money and allows special interests to take advantage of things that ordinary people cannot take advantage of.
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Looks pretty thoughtful to me, not as mindless as an “Ummm…$250,000?” And the fact of the matter is that $250,00 in CA vs. MI vs. KY means something very different. So it can’t be a simple answer, and I don’t think he treated that way. And McCain once again sounds like he’s pandering because you know he’s not really going to do that. “Test everything, cling to what is good.”

4. What was funny is that he talked about people who made $150,000 or less and then about those who make $250,000 or more. What about those who make between $150 and $250k?

   Obama’s line about selling 25 million books qualifies you as rich was pretty funny though, kudos to the handler that came up with that.

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