Should we ignore it, negotiate with it, contain it, or defeat it?
Obama: “Um…evil does exist”
McCain: “Defeat it.” Grand Slam.
McCain is showing a depth of leadership and a broad knowlege of the issues at hand in his responses which Obama cannot touch.
Frank,
Clairification please: is it your view that McCain believes “certain people or countries are without sin”? If so, when has he said or implied this?
As to the question of whether evil exists: while it was asked by Pastor Rick in a philosophical context with universal implications, McCain’s answer applies to the defeat of evil in a local, not universal, sense.
We humans cannot ultimately defeat evil universally and drive it from the world (though I would argue that Jesus has done that through his death and resurrection with a yet future realization of what he has already accomplished) but we can and should meet evil where it appears locally and work to defeat it. That’s what McCain meant and most people who criticize his response know that’s what he meant but choose to deride him by applying his answer universally when he made it clear the SPECIFIC, LOCAL evil he believes we ought to defeat is radical Islamic extremism.
And it IS complicated.
“Defeat it.” Yeah that’s a great sound bite. Decisive, hooray. However it isn’t remotely realistic, or Christian. Obama knows he’s speaking to evangelicals. And so, sincerely or not, he doesn’t contradict Christian teachings by claiming that certain people or countries are without sin. This isn’t complicated, folks.
Pixelmaster,
You are finished posting here.
Dougman, Pix didn’t call him names, he categorized/labeled Elliot. Yeah, I personally find that as unhelpful as labeling Pix a “left wing propagandist”… but was Pix more accurate about that than others have been about labeling him?
I welcome Elliott’s privilege to post his views, and I’m glad I’m welcome to disagree with him (for now, at least).
Pixel, you dismissed Elliot’s opinion by calling him names. I find that offensive.
Elliott is entitled to his views and I would hope welcome to express them.
Michael, if that prevents you from discerning truth or error, you have a serious problem – the Bible contains MUCH stronger language than that (especially when you get beyond a sanitized translation).
Michael Elliott,
Sounds like we have an extreme fundamentalist here. I am not sure but if Bob cracked a beer in the past week, I am sure you would feel the same. We all try to make laws where they are nonexistent don’t we?
Bob, In trying to read the thread and make up my mind, you lost my vote by including profanity and quoting scripture in the same thread (BS and He** no). That deeply offends me. Michael
The original question is “Does evil exist? And if it does, do we ignore it, do we negotiate with it, do we contain it, or do we defeat it?”
The way this question is framed by the subsequent question clearly put it in the context of the war. Obama purposefully expanded the question in order to skirt the issue. McCain was direct and to the point. “Defeat it!” No need for nuance here!
Obama is a rookie with less than 6 months of true experience as a senator. His proposed policies are at best naive and at worst dangerous. The jury is still out whether or not I can fully support McCain (I’m waiting to see who he chooses for his running mate), but I have no doubt that he is decisive and not prone to nuance!
“Jane, Jane, stop this crazy thing!”
McCain appears to be trying to align himself with Ronald Reagan because aligning with either Bush would be political suicide. It seems to be about perception, not reality. He did that over and over at Saddleback. I came away trusting him even less – he equivocated WAY more than Obama, outright not answering two of Rick’s questions in a row (merit pay for teachers and the following question). Just told stories instead. My dad used to do that – control the conversation and you don’t have to worry about being caught with your defenses down.
Obama isn’t letting the rest of the world’s sinners off, and he seems to have a better grasp of Total Depravity than McCain, who actually thought we could “defeat evil”. Imagine that.
OK, OK, now I’m REALLY outta here. Go have the last word.
B/Bo,
You only make my point. Of course the quote is McCain’s and I knew it before you identified the speaker. Obama would never say it quite that way. After all, his wife wasn’t proud of America her whole adult life until her husband delcared for president.
The difference between McCain and Obama is that McCain believes we are the shining city on a hill IN SPITE of our flaws. Obama believes we ARE NOT the shining city on a hill BECAUSE of our flaws. He throws the baby out with the bathwater.
I’m not suggesting America is perfect and that we are above criticism and correction. But when Obama speaks about America he sounds more like a European than an American. His pride in his country (what little there is) is manufactured and forced.
EVERY country is as you describe America, because every country is made up of fallen sinners. The problem is not America. The problem is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Yet Obama is willing to indict America and let the rest of the world’s sinners off.
Here’s where you read something into it:
“Obama believes that defending ourselves against radical Islamic extremism is ‘evil'”
Contrary to the context, you chose to apply his comments about evil to that. He never said nor implied that America is the embodiment of evil – that’s a silly accusation. You’re saying he “believes” certain things based on what you read into his words. (“Oh, but of course he’d never really say what he believes because then people might be onto him, like all the other secret Muslims…”)
How about this direct quote:.
“We have our flaws, and we have our failings, and we talk about them all the time, and we should, but we remain…the most unusual experiment in history, and I’m privileged to spend every day of my life in it.”
Does the quote above indicate that the speaker HATES America because that person identifies the fact that we have flaws and failings and encourages talking about that? If so, then John McCain hates America, too (because it’s his quote), and so do I. But that is BS and you’ve got to be able to see that.
America is indeed ego-centric and ethno-centric, and it is indeed embarrassing that we are so lazy and self-possessed that we refuse to learn multiple languages so that we may better communicate with others. Does that mean I “hate” America? HELL NO. It means that I’m willing to be honest about her (and my) short-comings, because unless you expose the darkness, you’ll never have the chance to walk in the light. But… “men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil… they would not come to the light lest their deeds be exposed…” (John 3)
Dude, I love ya, I’m praying for ya, but this is turning out to be a George Jetson treadmill, and I’ll play the role of Jane. Peace, out.
b/Bo,
I’m predisposed against him because he holds to positions that are clearly not in the best interest of this country. It isn’t what I am reading INTO what he says that leads me to that conclusion, but what he actually SAYS.
What he ACTUALLY said was: “Now, the one thing that I think is very important is for to us have some humility in how we approach the issue of confronting evil, because a lot of evil’s been perpetrated based on the claim that we were trying to confront evil.”
The “we” in the above statement is US – America. The “a lot of evil’s been perpetrated” is applied to WE – America. Obama believes that defending ourselves against radical Islamic extremism is “evil” while never citing the evil done to US by radical Islamic extremism on, since, and before 9/11.
I haven’t made anything up, Bob. I haven’t read into anything that Obama has said. His own words condemn him. Barack Obama does indeed believe that America is the embodiment of evil. Read or listen to his Father’s Day sermon. He lists five broad categories which make him embarrassed to be an American (read my post from June on it here:
http://godandculture.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/barack-obamas-america/)
Listen to him at a Townhall meeting in Georgia telling the crowd that he is embarassed when Europeans come to America and all they hear is English being spoken when they can speak multiple languages.
I’m concerned for YOU that you believe the best about him and give him the benefit of the doubt when his words are so clearly anti-American.
Obama said very clearly that evil exists and must be confronted, both at home and abroad. He also argued that we can’t erase evil from the world (something a good Calvinist would believe) but that it is ultimately God’s job to remove it… but that God can use us as “soldiers” in that battle. He also stressed the need for humility because we have at times done evil ourselves while trying to confront it – that isn’t a categorical condemnation of the USA.
This appears to be more like loving it enough to be honest about how things REALLY are and dealing with problems both external and internal. Just like you’d have to confront problems in a marriage – it takes humility and an open-mindedness to see where you contributed to the problem (it’s always easy to spot where your spouse went wrong!). But no real reconciliation and healing happens unless both parties see things as they really are and then deal with the whole package. That is exactly where America is today.
You’re reading stuff in that isn’t there because you are so predisposed against him. There is no implication that America is “the embodiment of evil” – you’re making that up. He didn’t imply “America is evil”, but he was willing to be candid about the evil that does indeed exist both here and elsewhere. How can you not see that?
Paul, I’m starting to be concerned for you, bro – it feels like you’re unable to see the whole picture. You may have legitimate reasons for not wanting an Obama presidency per your other posts – I’m not arguing that – but you don’t have to make stuff up that isn’t there.
I’m not defending Obama so much as I’m defending truth, and you’re not being truthful with what was ACTUALLY said. And I love you enough to have to call you on this.
b/Bo,
Beyond my response above, McCain’s two word response to the question of evil gets to the point of the matter far better than does Obama’s professorial, esoterical answer more suited to hypothesis than the real world. His answer betrays his commitment to the postmodern ideal of relativism – ie., what is evil to me may not be evil to you. We need a president who knows evil when he sees it and understands there is only one way to deal with it: defeat it.
b/Bo,
Obama defined evil narrowly, said we should confront it in Darfur and “the streets of our cities,” basically implying that America is evil because, in his view, we have ignored the suffering in Darfur and allowed evil to thrive in our own cities. Neither is a far characterisation.
Then he left no doubt what he meant when he wrapped it up by indicting America as the embodiment of evil: “…a lot of evil has been perpetrated based on the claim that we were trying to confront evil.” The man HATES America.
How you can defend him is in itself indefensible.
Here is a transcript of Obama’s actual reply:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OBAMA: Evil does exist. I mean, I think we see evil all the time. We see evil in Darfur. We see evil, sadly, on the streets of our cities. We see evil in parents who viciously abuse their children. I think it has to be confronted. It has to be confronted squarely, and one of the things that I strongly believe is that, now, we are not going to, as individuals, be able to erase evil from the world. That is God’s task, but we can be soldiers in that process, and we can confront it when we see it. Now, the one thing that I think is very important is for to us have some humility in how we approach the issue of confronting evil, because a lot of evil’s been perpetrated based on the claim that we were trying to confront evil.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry Paul, but your version of it WAS INDEED a caricature. You may have liked McCain’s answer better, but Obama’s was indeed thoughtful and conversational as I had been told by others. McCain’s answer seemed more like a sound bite; Obama’s seemed to actually show more depth and breadth to it. Fair and balanced? Perhaps that’s Fox News’ domain… 😉