With panic overtaking the global financial markets and the outcome of the U.S. presidential election looking favorable to Senator Obama, these words from John Piper in his latest book Spectacular Sins need to be heard:
It seems to me that Christians in the West are being coddled. We suffer little in the name of Christ. Therefore, we read the Bible not with a desperate hunger for evidences of God’s triumph over pain, but with a view to improving our private pleasures.
Therefore, we read the Bible selectively. We pick a text here or there to fit our felt needs. This is like a doctor who forgets how to write prescriptions for the best antibiotics because everybody seems healthy, and he has spent the last decades tweaking good healh with hip-hop excercise videos, unaware that pestilence is at the door. It’s like the soldier who forgets how to use his weapons because the times seem peaceful, and he has spent the last decades doing relief work and teaching children how to play games.
But the times are changing. For seventy million baby boomers, for example, life has changed. It seems very short now. What used to be a fond nostalgia for the sixties has turned into an ache that the beloved decade is now so far away that its main meaning is: we are dying. Different ages get the message in different ways.
And not only life, but the world too is shrinking. People who don’t like Christians are all around us. Only a strange providence keeps our churches from being bombed. It’s only a matter of time till the reality of the rest of the world comes home…
The coddled Western world will sooner or later give way to great affliction. And when it does, whose vision of God will hold? Where are Christians being prepared for great global sorrows? Where is the Christian mind and soul being prepared for the horrors to come? Christians in the West are weakened by wimpy worldviews. And wimpy worldviews make wimpy Christians. God is weightless in our lives. He is not terrifyingly magnificent. His sovereignty is secondary (at best) to his sensitivity.
. . . . . . . . . .
I am writing this book to build a vision of God into our lives that will not let us down in the worst of times. I mean really bad times. Horrific times. Who is prepared to meet the Agony that is coming?
. . . . . . . . . .
Global cataclyms and personal catasrophes are coming. I say this not as one with my finger in the wind, but with my finger in the Bible.
The election of Barack Obama will be the beginning of sorrows for followers of Jesus Christ. The more I learn about Obama, the more convinced I am that he is a closet Muslim with anti-Israel sympathies. His adulation by people around the world, and the admiration he has gained from world leaders with no record to support such a response leads me to believe that there is a spiritual power at work which has elevated this man above his pay-grade.
I am convinced that should God appoint this man to office, God will use him to inflict great persecution against the church of Jesus Christ, driving Christians to their knees while separating wheat from chaff and sheep from goats. Will the real Christians please stand up!
(hint – read verse 9)
“I’m sure that Peter and John had it right: Obey God!”
And what did they just do that caused the uproar?
b/Bo,
Just like I said previously, charity and evangelism are not mutually exclusive. Both are commanded, but we must always keep in mind the worth of a soul and that all of our charity must support our care for each other as Christians and our preaching of the Gospel to a hopeless world in order to bring them in to the Kingdom.
Jeff,
“If your church were to cease tomorrow, would the community weap?”
I don’t think that would happen for most churches. Consider John 15:18-20:
“If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.”
Popularity has never been a virtue that should be sought after. But faithfulness, hope, charity, and evangelism are.
Acts 4
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
” ‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]'[b] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16″What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”
18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
I’m sure that Peter and John had it right: Obey God!
As Paul said it, Galatians 1:
9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
If your church were to cease tomorrow, would the community weap?
“…there are a lot of churches that produce honest, good disciples of Christ. Those churches understand both God’s goodness as well as God’s justice. They understand the message of hope and holistic change that Jesus brings; but they also understand that the same message that brings hope to some, brings despair to others. The ultimate purpose of the church is to proclaim the gospel. It is the ultimate sign of love towards your neighbor.”
Thank You Benjamin
I think instead of calling a revolutionary march in the streets…we should all find and fully support our truly productive churches…those that preach the Living Word and produce the fruit of LIFE! There is indeed light in this dark world…let’s support it with our giving; in both financial support and the service of good works!
I think b/Bo, Jeff, and many other Christians have a right to be disappointed with the lack of love among so many that are part of Christ’s church. From poverty, environment concerns and abortion to corrupt ministers and judgmental/arrogant/bigot Christians, the indifference of the church is scary.
I also think that most of us agree on all of those problems, they all need to be addressed and we need to do it quick.
GK Chesterton said once: “The reformer is always right about what is wrong.He is generally wrong about what is right.” It is my opinion that you are mostly right about the symptoms, but you are wrong on the treatment.
You probably heard this before: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone” You also probably heard St. Augustine’s “Love God and do whatever.”
I think that is the root of the problem: people that are nominal Christians, they have never been born again, never put their complete trust in God. That’s where our treatment should start.
Unless we solve our biggest problem – SIN – , we are completely paralyzed.Sin is a chronic disease. And if that problem does not get solved, then everything else is useless. What’s the point of giving your neighbor a foot massage when he needs a heart transplant?
We are guilty a lot of times with trying to oversimplify everything. We want sound-bites and quick messages in the bottle. So, a lot of times the church just wants to quickly add people and are selling themselves to accomplish that.
But, there are a lot of churches that produce honest, good disciples of Christ. Those churches understand both God’s goodness as well as God’s justice. They understand the message of hope and holistic change that Jesus brings; but they also understand that the same message that brings hope to some, brings despair to others. The ultimate purpose of the church is to proclaim the gospel. It is the ultimate sign of love towards your neighbor.
Here’s Isaiah 53:
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Greg, like us, the kingdom of God is IN the world but not OF the world. The subjects aren’t trying to populate the kingdom – they are trying to do what the king wants done in his kingdom. They’re fixing, restoring, building, etc. Yes, the king invites all to come into the kingdom – not in order to just be in it, but to do what he wants DONE in it. Just look at what Jesus and the disciples ACTUALLY did.
Regarding the Kingdom of God,
Matthew 18:33-38: “33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.”
As you can see, even Jesus Himself said His Kingdom was not of this world. Again, I am not saying that charity and evangelism are mutually exclusive. I am saying that evangelism must take precedence.
I want to make a general comment regarding the idea of the Kingdom of God. What are the two things that every kingdom has in common? First of all, it has a king, second, it has subjects for the king to rule over. If we are to be about the business of the Kingdom of God, should we not be most interested in doing everything we can to populate it? After this, As the Almighty King of Kings, God Himself takes care of His own (through human means so we may be blessed as well). Food for thought…
Maybe this will help: what I’m talking about here is a shift in EMPHASIS. I am NOT denying realities of sin, guilt, propitiation, repentance, heaven, the lake of fire,etc.
Instead, I am affirming that there are other aspects of the atonement and the mission of God incarnate that Jesus himself place a higher emphasis on. The “Romans Road” is not my manual for evangelism – that an exposition written TO believers that gives THEM a better understanding of the legal facet of atonement (one of MANY facets).
Jesus method of proclaiming the good news did NOT start with bad news (“uh…you’re all wicked and going to hell unless you repent”). He proclaimed ACTUAL GOOD NEWS:
“And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all. And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim GOOD NEWS to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “TODAY this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
(Luke 4:14-21 ESV) [caps mine]
Yes, there is a cost – your life, your habits, your old broken strategies for coping, your self-centered goals.
Yes, there may be pain and suffering, but there WILL also be joy, peace, hope, freedom, and love.
The gospel is REALLY GOOD news, and it is good news in the here and now (as well as for the sweet bye and bye). It brings healing to individuals, communities, humanity on EVERY level (not just the spiritual).
It is the GOODNESS, the KINDNESS of God that leads us to change our minds (i.e. repent) about Him. That is an affirmation, a shift in emphasis, but not a denial of what it isn’t emphasizing. Get it now?
Mel,
““The Kingdom living concept is one that glorifies God in all we do, it says that corporate involvement is on par with individual salvation, it doesn’t use fear as a tactic of salvation it is living a life that when Christ is truly at the center folks are naturally drawn to it.”
How does that square with;
“all of our righteousness is as filthy rags”,
“it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them which were lost” ”
It is comments like this that really show that you (and others) don’t seem get it (not condescending in this comment). I asked Ben if he had ever read The Secret Message of Jesus, his response would indicate not. There is no denying the importance of those scriptures that you are referencing but that is not all the story. The Emergent church has taken a critical look at the current church and its many doctrines and facets. They allow themselves to ask questions about how doctrines come about and what effect they have on the church. They are also very honest in the assessment that the church is sometimes more of a version of Paulianity than Christianity. In other words, we tend to focus more on Paul’s letters and create doctrines and lifestyles out of that than the words of Jesus.
It is actually very refreshing, I certainly don’t agree with everything that McLaren. Bell and the rest say, but I do think they are honest and humble in their approach to God, which is refreshing in light of other Guys who claim the Bible is crystal clear in every aspect.
(from my cell phone) I guess I’m more focused on the reality of God in my everyday life so that eternity really IS “bonus” to me. it was for Paul, too: “for me to live is Christ, to die is gain.”
Look, I’m trying to base what I say and do on the words & actions of Jesus. I aim to interpret the epistles through the lens of Jesus, not vice-versa. What did HE say was good news, how did he proclaim it, and what did he do for others and expect us to do?
I don’t see him pre-occupied with talking about the realities of sin and guilt; sure, Paul explained that facet of the atonement to people who were already believers, but Jesus’ message to the lost wasn’t that. “Blessed are… you have heard it said, but I say… the kingdom of God is like… follow me… “
By the way, Jeff,
Don’t think that I have been ignoring you, well maybe a little ;D , I just wanted to deal the one issue that is nearest and dearest to my heart and that is the salvation of anyone the Lord brings into my path. I do want to address your comments in number 14, but I will have to reserve that for either this evening or tomorrow. I’ll be back then!
Benjamin,
Thank you for your comments, especially your last one regarding our heart’s desire as truly converted Christians to be with our Savior jesus Christ for all eternity. Each and every day I long so much more to see Him and finally lay myself and whatever small reward I may win in this life at His feet. In the meantime, I want to bring as many as will come with me to his house so we can all praise Him together. I hope that is the prayer of all the true converts who read this!
b/Bo the only similarity that was intended in my comment between you and Joel Olsteen is the here/now emphasize that you and him share.
Joel argues for the “prosperity”, whereas you emphasize Jesus’ “social agenda”:”doing good, healing, restoring, forgiving, and teaching people how to do the same – that’s the program”.
That is not the program. Those are secondary issues. You have to solve first the vertical problem, before you can even attempt to solve the horizontal problem. We have a serious unresolved issue with God and it’s called SIN. The church might emphasize that a lot, but they only do it because they understand the root of the problem. You can’t ask a pig to stay clean, well … you can ask, but he won’t listen. We need a transformed nature. In your opinion, how do you think that is accomplished?
Jeff-I appreciate your comments. I don’t think anyone here has denied that being a Christian is so much more than being saved. Being saved is just the beginning of the trip. But, I need to state that the bible is not kidding around. Unless a person is saved, he/she is lost forever. This is no small thing. As for, “simply getting them to heaven and forgetting about them after they are “born again””, I agree completely with you. The church has been guilty of making converts rather than disciples as the God commands to do.
I look forward to heaven, and I don’t look at it as just a “bonus”. Being with my savior an eternity is not a bonus, it’s my heart’s ultimate desire. Augustine was right when he said:”Thou hast created us for Thyself, and our heart is not quiet until it rests in Thee.” It starts here and it ends there. There’s no split in between; there’s no part that is the real deal and the bonus; all of it is the real deal.
b/Bo,
I think that we are closer than it would appear. I think that we would both agree that there truly is no such thing as a “carnal Christian.” Like you said, either you are a follower of Christ, or you are not! I also appreciate your sympathetic heart as well. Our discussions have challenged me to dig deeper into the Bible and to make sure that I am able to base what I say solidly on what it says and not just what I have heard or feel is true in my heart.
You are absolutely right in your statement that the OT and Jesus proclaimed the benefits of following the ways of God. When I tell you of taking those I witness to through the law first, I am not saying that I slam them with a condemning word in order to prove my own moral superiority (if people could read my mind over the years they would know that’s definitely not the case!), but to act as a diagnostician to help them come to the conclusion through their own conscience that they are a sinner and need a Savior to cure them from the curse of sin. In John 3:18, jesus said “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” We are passing judgement on those who are not converted, that judgement was passed a long time ago and each and every one of us at one time were under that condemnation, but thankfully as the Apostle Paul has told us in Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Wow! Talk about your benefits! We are no longer condemned by our sin because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That alone is the greatest message that we can proclaim.
But in order to understand that good news, one must see themselves as sinners in the hands of a angry God (to quote Jonathan Edwards). To illustrate the depth of our sin, if I were to lie to my little dog Jack, there would be no consequence because he cannot understand a word I say. If I were to lie to my son, I lose credibility and respect. If I lie to my wife, I’m sleeping on the couch, or if it is a more serious lie it could lead to a divorce. If i lie in court, i could spend at least one night in prison. If I lie to the government, I could suffer anything from life imprisonment all the way to capital punishment. In each scenario the sin is the same. What is the difference? The level of authority that each one I lied to has. If this is the case, what should happen when I lie to the most Holy and Almighty God? Revelation 21:8 says, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” John does not mince words here. When we sin against the ultimate authority in the universe, there must be a payment made satisfy the Holiness of God or else He would not be just. That is why the good news of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is so crucial. Only when we understand our hopeless condition, can we truly understand His sacrifice. This is the pinnacle of the Grace of God!
“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10) It’s all about grace.
“The Kingdom living concept is one that glorifies God in all we do, it says that corporate involvement is on par with individual salvation, it does’t use fear as a tactic of salvation it is living a life that when Christ is truly at the center folks are naturally drawn to it.”
How does that square with;
“all of our righteousness is as filthy rags”,
“it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them which were lost”
The problem herein is this; Which one of us can live good enough to cause the lost to want to emulate?
It is the Holy Spirit that does the drawing, not our wonderful lifestyles. I personally, have been unable to attain, glorifying God in all I do, how about you? Until I get this thing perfected, I’ll stick with the Holy Spirit and his abilities. I still need keeping until my day of redemption.
Ben, apology accepted.
Regarding “what hope are you giving people by claiming that the kingdom of God is all about here and now?”
Obviously you misread/misunderstood. I tried several times to make it clear: the kingdom of God STARTS in the here and now and continues forever. Here and now restoration is Jesus’ main focus, while the afterlife is bonus.
Regarding “’your best life now’ gospel is inconsistent with the Bible, inconsistent with the reality of evil in this world.”
I’m not for the Joel Osteen “best life now” gospel one bit. You’re trying too hard to pigeon-hole me instead of understand me (something the Pharisees, Herodians, Essenes, and Zealots tried without success to do to Jesus). The gospel of the kingdom is higher, different than our man-made categories and frames of reference.
I don’t deny the reality of suffering and evil – “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution”; “in this world you WILL have tribulation – but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world”.
However, I also won’t deny that Jesus promised ABUNDANT LIFE, life full of joy, peace, hope, and love, life that is busy restoring the world and bringing healing wherever we go. He’s either a liar or not – you choose. And Jesus went about doing good, healing, restoring, forgiving, and teaching people how to do the same – that’s the program; let’s get with it.
Let’s love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, let’s actually love our neighbors as good (if not better) than we love ourselves, and let’s see the reality of God’s kingdom infiltrate every layer of society (regardless of which party wins the upcoming election).
Ben,
Once again, you were directing your comments to Bob but I want to interject something. Bob and I have had many offline discussions on this so I know where he stands and we agree on much. You are greatly confusing the Kingdom of God message with the name it, claim it message. The message of get all you can here and now. You mentioned McLaren, I have to ask have you read The Secret Message of Jesus? I think it is important to understand what is referred to when Bob says it is not all about the sweet bye and bye. The Kingdom living concept is one that glorifies God in all we do, it says that corporate involvement is on par with individual salvation, it doesn’t use fear as a tactic of salvation it is living a life that when Christ is truly at the center folks are naturally drawn to it. It says let’s share Christ with others in demonstrating how we can serve others and doesn’t just focus on simply getting them to heaven and forgetting about them after they are “born again”. It transcends right thinking with right living and thinking. When you understand this, then you can understand why things are worded the way they are, ie it is not just about getting people into heaven. There is a reason why the church is failing and it has nothing to do with end times falling away, it has everything to do with failing to seek the entire message of Jesus. When you isolate Jesus to simply his birth and death there is a whole lot that is missed which is why many feel empty in the church and is why the church mimics the world in most facets of life, divorce, pornography, etc. I this life that Bob speaks of can be implemented in suffering or in prosperity, it is a holistic examination of the person we call our Savior and Lord.
Ben, If you never have I encourage you to pick up and read the Secret Message of Jesus, it is not long, once you read it you might understand that the Emergent Church is not to threatening. BTW, I used to be part of the movement to squash the emergent church, until I read what they actually were saying and not depending on quote mined phrases.
b/Bo my comments were never intended as an insult. I’m sorry if you took them that way. The question had a point.
The “gospel” you are promoting is not consistent with suffering. Life is hard, this world is full of suffering and pain, as you are well aware. So, what hope are you giving people by claiming that the kingdom of God is all about here and now?
“your best life now” gospel is inconsistent with the Bible, inconsistent with the reality of evil in this world.
As Greg pointed out: “charity and evangelism are not mutually exclusive and in fact both are commanded”
The Holy Spirit started the work of salvation in my heart and will complete the work. I don’t remember much talk about “fire insurance” in the church where I met Jesus…it was more about loving Him because He first loved us…the goodness of God leads us to repentance…I still remember that day and the realization that I needed to be changed and that He loved me enough to want me with Him forever …Quite a romantic thought for a 14 year old… I’ve never stopped believing in forever love even these many years later. I want everyone to have forever love…not fire insurance, even though it is part of the blessing.
Greg, you’re a sympathetic soul willing to try to understand and discuss, and I appreciate that about you. I don’t think we’re off much in our understanding, just more in our emphasis. Yes, God is holy – he is unique, not like us, and we must acknowledge and glory in that. I’m not a “God’s got a wonderful plan for your life and everything will be rosy” type guy; that is not the abundant life to the full of Jesus or his disciples. And yet and yet…
…there may indeed be times of blessing (through which we must in turn bless others). I think we’re one on all of that. Jesus did challenge some people quite directly – but I don’t see him trying to convince them of their sinfulness and “scaring them out of hell”; instead, I see strong (but encouraging) challenges to follow him at the cost of their old ways of living.
Some may think this is the “call to discipleship” which is subsequent to a “salvation experience”, as though discipleship is optional; I do not make that distinction – you’re either following Jesus and embracing his way and working at being like him, or you aren’t.
But as in the OT, he does proclaim that there are BENEFITS for following his way – life, freedom, peace, etc. to those who do (in spite of tough times and even through them) – that is great news. He’s not brow-beating, he’s encouraging. He’s pretty much only harsh with the self-righteous types; the others he has great compassion for.
Yes, God must provide the grace, strength, and power for what we cannot do; thankfully he sends the Holy Spirit for that as we “taste and see that the Lord is good”. Yes, we all have sinned…, but the emphasis is not on the guilt of man as much as it is on the GOODNESS of God and his way (i.e., his kingdom). That is what I’m encouraging, which I think is way more consistent with Jesus’ actions as recorded in scripture. Such people then do good to others, letting their good works shine before men so that God is glorified.
” I also know how your presuppositions color your interpretation of this and other passages. ”
*: ) …If we are alive long enough to be able to read…we have presuppositions…Hello Kettle…Hello Pot…meet Mr. Black.
b/Bo,
Benjamin’s Schaeffer reference it seems to me has to do with classical logic and how it relates with the specific issue at hand. It only stands to reason that if you have a faulty presupposition, you come to a faulty conclusion. This is exactly why I think that in any serious debate it is absolutely imperative that the logical presuppositions be examined and tested to see if they are valid. The fact that Frank has disavowed and distanced himself from his father has absolutely nothing to do with this foundation of logic and is therefore irrelevant to Benjamin’s point.
I understand what you are saying regarding Jesus use of the word Gehenna, which does refer to the valley of Hinnom, but in the time of Jesus, the use of the word had come to be more of an association with destruction by fire than with a reference to the actual valley of Hinnom. Consider Luke Chapter 16:19-31. Jesus is relating the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The main difference between this particular story and the rest of Jesus parables is the fact that this story has a man’s name listed, which would indicate that it is actual history as opposed to a story just to illustrate a spiritual principle. Verse 23 says “and in hell he lift his eyes, being in torment…” If this is history as opposed to just a parable, hell must be an actual place of torment.
I have read your earlier guest post to which you referred and admit that there things there that I do agree with. In John 10:10 Jesus said, “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” Life as a Christian is abundant, peaceful, as well as joyful. However, we have no guarantee that life will not be difficult. In fact, Jesus promised that the world would hate us. When they do hate us, it’s a pretty good indication that the Holy Spirit is pricking their conscience. In my own witnessing encounters of late, the worst hecklers I have spoken with are those that claim to be Christians! It’s usually when the Holy Spirit starts working on their conscience that you see a marked change in their demeanor. If they are open to the Spirit, you see the conviction on their face and then at that moment you share the good news of the Gospel and allow the Holy Spirit to complete his work in their heart. If they are hostile to Holy Spirit, many times they will end the conversation or continue to rail at the one sharing the message.
I must say that I am sympathetic with you in your spiritual journey because I have had to strip all of my own presuppositions to their foundations. Having grown up in the same type of “Independent, Fundamental, Bible-Believing, Baptist Church,” (I sang at a church while I was still in college where the pastor said that phrase so many times, we started referring to it as the “Dreaded I F triple-B!”) where the “Hellfire and Brimstone” style of preaching was too much of the norm, I came close to walking away from church altogether and just living my life as best as I knew how. I was hurt very deeply by people that I was once very close to and I allowed the root of bitterness to take hold of my life for much too long. It was only when I realized that what happened to me was not my responsibility, and that my reaction to it was my responsibility, was I able to start my journey of faith again. I hope that in my quest for God that I have been the kind and gentle influence that I believe God has called us to be. I also pray every day that I can have an opportunity to share the faith that God has given to me.
Now, we should get back to the subject at hand. Why is the concept of hell so important? It has to begin with the Holiness of God. Whenever you read in the Bible where one of the writers has had a vision of heaven, what are the angels crying? Lovey, Lovey, Lovey is the Lord God Almighty? No it is “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.” Because God is Holy first and foremost, all of His other attributes must be secondary to it in order for him to be in fact, God. Because God is the Holy Sovereign Creator of all things, He has every right to do with it as He pleases and is bound only be what He Himself has decreed. When He created the universe, He knew full well that Adam would rebel and sin against Him. Yet He allowed this in order to demonstrate His other attributes of Love and Forgiveness. If He had sent Adam immediately to hell, He would have been justified in doing so. Adam willfully rebelled against the law that God had established and deserved to be thrown straight in hell. But as Paul told us in Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Through the sacrifice of His own Son, He was best able to demonstrate His attributes of love, forgiveness, grace, and mercy.
It is important that we correctly show those to whom we witness that we as sinners have transgressed the law of God which is shown in the 10 Commandments. It is through the law that we are made aware of sin and understand that we are in need of the cure. If I was a doctor and had discovered a cure for cancer, would I just go out and find the first person I see and offer it to him without some sort of diagnostic test to see if he indeed has the disease? The law is the diagnostic test to convince the person we are witnessing to that he indeed is in need of the cure. Without the diagnostic test, the person to which I offered the cure would think I was crazy and may even be offended because I even thought that he was sick.
But we do have the cure. And if we just go out and try to tell people that “God has a wonderful plan for your life” or “Come to Jesus and he will take away all of your problems” (both of which are popular methods of evangelism today), most of the time people will think we are nuts! The sinful condition must be properly diagnosed before the cure can be administered. Taking them lovingly through the law and then when the Holy Spirit uses the law to break the heart of the one to whom we are speaking, we can then give them the reason for the hope that lie within us, which of course is the Gospel.
The bottom line comes down to our motivations. If a person “accepts Jesus and asks Him into his heart” (a gross mischaracterization of the salvation process) in order to escape hell and use his salvation as a “fire-insurance policy,” I’m afraid what we have there is a classic case of a false convert. But if when taken through the law brings Godly sorrow and conviction to one’s heart and the thought of transgressing against the Almighty God unbearably grieves their heart, which is the beginning of a true convert. The gain of Heaven and the escape of Hell is not the ultimate point of conversion. It is now the praise and worship of Almighty God and we show our gratitude by telling everyone we are able that He is our Savior, Redeemer, and ultimately, our Friend. This kind of peace is not dependant on our outward circumstances, but on the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.
As I said before, outward charity and evangelism are not mutually exclusive and in fact both are commanded. But it is the state of our soul’s relationship with God that must take precedent and it is only then that we can begin to fulfill the Kingdom of God.
Oh, and by the way, I’m not real worried about Bill Maher. His movie will go the way of “Fahrenheit 911” and “The DaVinci Code” because he props up more straw men than there are scarecrows on all the farms in Nebraska! It’s easy to shoot down something you portray as ridiculous and dismiss the possibility that there actually are merits to the opposing argument. He’s a hack and cynic. He’s not interested in debate. Just his own convoluted worldview.
Maybe…just, maybe…the title of this post should substitute “Whiny” for “Wimpy”. When we are weak(wimpy) He is strong…no such relief is given to the “whiny”.
“This is where the “Mom” says,”If you DO the RIGHT thing…the issues disappear!””
So sticking my head in the sand and excepting the authority of the priest between me and Jesus is the right thing to do? Sorry used to be there, no longer drinking that Kool-Aid. Of course, you left out that last part of my sentence. The first part is about control, the second part is about nurturing and furthering God’s Kingdom.
I am very critical of a guy who is more interested that his people are doing the right thing <—-Control
than what issues are going on in their lives that contribute to their lack of giving <—-Helping the least of these.
Ben,
“If I understand you right, you are a Brian McLaren follower.”
Let’s be clear here, most of use are Jesus followers, it is folks like Brian McLaren, Rob Bell and others who are brave enough to ask question that many of us consider sacred. To me, reading these authors have opened up a whole new world, many of the issues they write about are ones that I have asked without sufficient answer in the past. I think these folks put Jesus more at the center in that the examine everything he said and did and don’t narrow his message or his actions down to one line sales pitches like “Have you been born again?” or “Do you know Jesus as your personal savior?”.
I know this was addressed to Bob, but I tend to agree with him on many of these spiritual topics.
Benjamin, “I can clearly see that you have not suffered in this life” – now THAT is condescending, arrogant, and uninformed. You have NO IDEA what me and my wife have lived through to bring us to this place of embracing the grace and good news of the kingdom of God.
On top of that, you attempt to label and categorize me as a McLaren follower as if that would negate any truths that I have spoken. If that is how you treat your “dear friends”, please don’t count me among them.Yes, I’ve thoughtfully read McLaren and Bell, as well as MacArthur, Pink, Schaeffer, Bunyan, Buechner, Tozer, Ruckman, Lewis, McKnight, Willard, Foster, Eldredge, Swindoll, Spurgeon, Augustine, Irenaus, and a myriad of others; it is absurd to label and dismiss me that way.
You have totally misunderstood my intent and my meaning; I urge you to re-read what I wrote with the desire to understand; I think many of your perceived problems will disappear.
“I am very critical of a guy who is more interested that his people are doing the right thing…”
This is where the “Mom” says,”If you DO the RIGHT thing…the issues disappear!”
My issue is not giving in general, I do have issues with my family that would prevent me up and leaving. I do feel that as a whole our faith system has lost it’s way, it is about making the mortgage payment and paying the clergy generously as opposed to kingdom living. Pastors seem all too willing to let their power get to their head and build their mini empires. I do wrestle with this, I am very critical of a guy who is more interested that his people are doing the right thing than what issues are going on in their lives that contribute to their lack of giving. I am very sensitive to matters of control, this is where our faith turns into useless religion. The relationship with Jesus Christ is turned on it’s head when people of power mandate things that helps themselves more than further the kingdom of God.
my dear friend,
I can clearly see that you have not suffered in this life. I lived in a communist country for more than 20 years, where people were persecuted for their faith. Their life became miserable on this earth the moment they became Christians. Jesus did not come to preach a Hindu message on the non-existence of evil. Jesus did not come to preach a hippie message: “Dude, change your way of thinking, man!” He did not come to repair flesh, but to give us a new heart. Jesus is not telling us that we need to change, he’s not a simple messenger. He tells us that we have a serious problem: we are at war against God and unless we come to Him empty handed and put our complete trust in his sacrifice that paid for our sins we are in real trouble.
God is my light and my salvation.He shows us through his light that we are sinners and he also shows us that he’s ready to provide us the salvation.
If I understand you right, you are a Brian McLaren follower.
He sounds just like you: “Jesus’ message is not actually about escaping this troubled world for heaven’s blissful shores, as is popularly assumed, but instead is about God’s will being done on this troubled earth as it is in heaven.”
And here is logical error that you and him seem to be continuously committing: false dichotomy. We don’t have to chose between here and there, between heaven and earth. It is both. We are on this earth for a short period and we can do everything is our powers to follow Him faithfully here, but it does not ends here, it rather just begins here.
The true choice is between Kingdom of God starting in our hearts on this corrupt earth and ending in Heaven, and Hell starting in this life and ending in the eternal pit.
So, it’s not “instead”, it is both.
Giving freely in the church…God loves a cheerful giver, but what about sacrificial giving??? Are we ever called to that…would you say it was unscriptural… Should we tag every gift we give? Can we trust our church board with the gifts we give?
It is always necessary to re-evaluate on a regular basis where budgeted money goes…I also believe that we should not let our eyes follow our gifts…
Such as, I give to my church…I trust they will wisely use my gift and I don’t except in rare occasions tag it. If I can’t trust the church’s board to use the funds as God is directing them…It is time to find another church…or examine my heart.
Those who practice a lifestyle of tithing (of their own volition) are rarely disturbed by sermons on giving.
Charity in the church…I find much objection to the thought that churches no longer practice charity; where ARE you attending church??? Surely there is somewhere that your church serves the community and you could join in…With all the churches in the USA, even with random choosing you will find some of the truly “Christian” ones and not only the objectionable ones…*: )
Thank you Benjamin…”…it’s only regenerated people that can live a regenerated life.” AMEN
Benjamin – last things first.
I thought my posts made it clear that I believe in an afterlife, including a lake of fire into which Hades is dumped. I believe Heaven is a temporary holding place until the new heavens and new earth are in place. And I believe that when Jesus referred to Gehenna (also unfortunately translated as “hell”), he wasn’t always talking about the afterlife; that garbage dump is always burning and maggots are always wriggling away in it, and you don’t want your life to end up like that.
I’ll skip the Schaeffer bit – he had his own presuppositions, many of which his own son ended up rejecting.
Regarding “the first lesson in interpreting the Bible is that the Bible explains itself” – some guy made that “lesson” up to fit his system of interpretation. There’s a whole lot more to it than that, and it probably merits a separate discussion elsewhere.
Regarding repentance, Jesus indeed came preaching “Repent for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is at hand”. The way that was taught to me was that we should grovel before him with tears and contrition and ask him into our hearts so we can go to heaven when we die. I no longer believe that was his intent; rather, I believe it was “You need to change your way of thinking – a new way of living in harmony with God’s plan and vision is now available.”
Living in harmony with God’s will requires a change of heart and mind – a transformation. So in that sense I agree with you that the root of the problem is in a heart that is clinging to the old ways and habits, and Jesus is telling everyone that they have to let go of that, to lose their old life, in order to find real living through him and his way. The country that those who died in faith welcomed from a distance… that country, that kingdom, that way of living under God’s rule, authority, and blessing – it’s available right now. Our citizenship can be in HIS kingdom right now. And THAT is truly good news. 🙂
Of course, there’s much more to Christian life than being saved.
But, unless you are saved from the wrath of God, everything else is useless. St. Augustine was arguing that the kingdom of God starts from the moment you are saved, and I agree with that … but to argue that it ends there it’s just ludicrous.
I understand where you are coming from, you probably were completely disappointed by the life of so many called Christians. But, I have to tell you that you found the wrong root of this problem. The root of the problem is an unrepented heart.
God’s word is not a thing to trifle with! The first lesson in interpreting the Bible is that the Bible explains itself.
Here is a verse from Hebrews:
“All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.”
I’m sure you’ll create an explanation that will fit your presuppositions on almost any verse in the Bible, but I just think that Schaeffer was right when he said that the more people stick with their false presuppositions the more they lose touch with reality.
Are you just trying to over-emphasize the here and now? Or are you completely denying hell, heaven and the afterlife?
BTW, Paul, when you said regarding Obama:
“His adulation by people around the world, and the admiration he has gained from world leaders with no record to support such a response leads me to believe that there is a spiritual power at work which has elevated this man above his pay-grade.”
I know you’re assuming that the spiritual power is Satan. But consider some of the kings God raised up in Judah who did righteousness, but not completely for one reason or another. Yet their reigns were still recorded as good times for their kingdoms and they were praised for the good they did.
Yes, Obama is biblically wrong about not being totally against abortion (though it is good that he is focused on reducing the number of abortions). Point granted. He’s an imperfect man like the kings of Judah, not the Messiah. Perhaps God will lead him to a more accurate understanding of that issue.
But what if the spiritual power that is elevating Obama is God himself? What if his shift in focus from preserving the wealth of the American empire through force to using more peaceful means and insisting that those who are blessed most have a responsibility to bless others (that’s why God blessed Abraham, right? To be a blessing to the nations).
What if Obama has been sent with his seemingly radical philosophies to accomplish more for the kingdom of God than warmongering and clogged trickle-down economics could ever do? What if self-centered capitalism is really anti-God, anti-Christ? How does it compare to the economy God laid out for Israel? How does it compare to the early church? I fear we have gotten so embedded into the empire’s way of thinking trying keep what we have while the world not only goes to hell around us, but lives in hell until they die.
Maybe we’ve been dead wrong in our approach. Maybe Obama is the only way to break the chain. Maybe he’s been raised up – in spite of his lack of experience – for this very purpose, by God himself as one last chance for this self-obsessed empire before judgment really falls.
Benjamin, I’ve been in your shoes. I don’t mean this condescendingly at all – honestly. I do understand what you’re saying, but I also know how your presuppositions color your interpretation of this and other passages. Please notice more carefully what Jesus is saying: “…unless one is born again (or “from above”) he cannot see the KINGDOM OF GOD.” (emphasis mine)
The mission of Jesus was the good news of the KINGDOM OF GOD, not of a pleasant afterlife. I challenge you to review each occurrence of “good news”/”gospel” and “kingdom” in the New Testament – it’s easy to do with online Bible study tools these days, and it may astound you like it astounded me. Please don’t assume that John’s unique use of the term “eternal life” strictly means the afterlife – that would be inconsistent with the other gospels; for John it’s more linked with “abundant life”, the kind of life that never gets old or dies; it’s a life you can receive in the here and now by faith.
Jesus hadn’t died on the cross when he spoke the words “…he gave his only Son…”, so you can’t assume he was speaking of the cross and his need to “pay the price”. His incarnation is in itself a very good gift to humanity, and his teaching that leads them into a new community that “fulfills the Torah” a wondrous gift. Anything less is the way of death, in which you won’t find abundant life but will indeed leave what you thought you had behind and indeed perish.
Please look elsewhere in scripture as Jesus comes “preaching the good news of the kingdom” – notice what he says and what the good news out of his own mouth really is. While “dying to pay the price” is indeed one aspect of what he accomplished for us (though not well proved by this particular passage), the real good news is SO much more than that.
Greg,
“Second, if you do believe in the concept of just war, please give an example of a just war and how it differs from the Iraq war.”
Say it ain’t so Greg, WWII I would say was more just than this one, we had public buy in, and we had a draft. I don’t think all aspect constitutes the Just war theory but it does more than this one does.
I want to address the idea of Obama and his “muslim” connections. What a sad state we are in when we are performing religious tests for office. Personally, I have read enough of Obama to know that he is not and to insinuate that he is seems more like a right wing attack than substance. But here is the point, we as Christians ONLY care about a persons worldview and nothing is more evident than Sarah Palin. This lady cannot answer questions when put on the spot, she capitulated and dodges the answers, in the debate she added nothing of substance, only pithy rehearsed phrases, yet we LOVE her. Why, she thinks about God the same way we do. It matters none whether she has the means to run this country. And here is why I think that our involvement in politics hurts us. We are used for our votes, and let me get this straight, no party is innocent, the Dems do this with African Americans. I am of the opinion that all Americans should stop putting their flag on this or that side and hold all politicians accountable for their actions. This administration and the Republican Party have been involved in many scandals and illegal action over the past 8 years. Why is this, it’s because they are politicians and they are liars and cheats. Yet, our Christian leaders who make their bed with the republican party step aside and let it happen. Do they call out GWB on his inhuman use of torture? No, they make excuses for it or flat out deny it blaming it on the left wing liberal media. Folks, that is why the world looks at us and hates us, it has nothing to do with being Christ like.
BTW, I want to state my position on the two party system in this country. I think both are basically one in the same. They both have their carrots that they put in front of the public to get their votes and do nothing about them; it’s called a wedge issue. They use wedge issues to keep the lemmings coming back to keep them in power. I don’t think all in government are like this, I do think we have a class system in our government and we have leaders on both sides of the isle that have sold us out. This is why a bailout package gets passed so quickly even tho true conservatives and true liberals and most of Americans are against it. Once you recognize that GWB, Cheney and the leaders in the congress are all on the same page you understand how this can happen. Is it conspiratorial, yes, but we need not run away from the word conspiracy because they are what help us understand and accept secret dealings and back door agreements. I am not an Alex Jones type, but I do think that we all need to recognize that there are individuals in both parties that have a lot of power that don’t care at all what we think, they just want you to pull the lever for them once every 4 or 6 years. Sometimes even pulling the level the other way doesn’t even work in the case of stolen elections, don’t be so naive to think that computerized election systems can’t be hacked, I have seen testimony from the programmers themselves stating how easy it is.
Also, getting back to the muslim issue, we need to stop thinking of them in terms of the terrorist, 99.999 percent of them are peaceful just like us. And don’t tell me what the Quran says about killing the infidel because our own text has a lot of the same in it. Crazies can look at either text and pull out justifications to do insane things.
b/Bo, it’s only regenerated people that can live a regenerated life.
And, yes … God does save us from ourselves, our habits, our circumstances, and so on. But, make no mistake Jesus died so that we can restore our relationship with God. Everything else are just consequences of that restoration.
Here is Jesus on the topic:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus,a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
So, why did Jesus come in the world? Because of God’s love that needed to pay the price so “that we might not perish”.
The gospel you are denying is Jesus’ gospel.
Greg, in the past you and I have had a shared understanding of the traditional Baptist/evangelical meaning for words like “saved” and “hell”. Please see my earlier guest post on this site called “Born Again Again” for my current understanding of the word “saved”, which now differs from what you and I used to hold in common.
While I do believe in a lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels, the term hell has two meanings based on which Greek word was being used: first there is Hades (the place for the dead which is ultimately thrown INTO the lake of fire; Tartaroo is the deepest part of Hades); then there is Gehenna (the fiery garbage dump outside of town that is always burning because junk is always being thrown onto it). While Hades certainly has to do with the afterlife, I’m not sure that Gehenna always means that; it could very well mean the garbage heap of life, a wasted life that has nothing to show for it.
There is MUCH to be saved/delivered/rescued/healed from other than a torturous afterlife (if such a thing is the case). How about being saved from yourself, your habits, your circumstances, your consequences, your failed relationships (including with God), your entire pattern of living that is contrary to the way of Jesus? Saved from the world that may hate you and persecute you and hassle and condemn and torture and perhaps even kill you. Much indeed to be saved from.
I can’t read Jesus’ teachings without seeing the emphasis on the here and now and how His way must be believed, embraced, and acted upon (not mentally assented to while filled with self-loathing and guilt). His way is freedom, life, joy, peace, and THAT is what we are to bring to the world, not merely the hope of a pleasant afterlife. Sure, people who love God and His way so much that they dedicate themselves to it will of course be with God FOREVER – of course. But forever isn’t the focus.
We love to put on the cloak of John the Baptist and say “You brood of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”, but I see Jesus correcting his disciples who wanted to call down fire from heaven on a certain city. I hear Jesus say “by this shall all men know you are my disciples: by your reformed doctrine and scaring people into heaven” – OOPS – sorry: “… by your LOVE one for another.” Would to God that we embodied that instead of deserving the caricatures we get in the media, from the Bill Mahlers of this world, etc.
b/Bo,
You are absolutely right when you say that the church should be involved in charity. If we as the church had been more involved in charity work, many more souls would have been saved. My contention is that as the church, we should to be more concerned about their souls than their physical well being, but that does not mean that the two are mutually exclusive. It only means that the physical well being should never take preeminence over evangelism.
However, I do disagree with you on the Kingdom of God having more to do with how we live in the here and now than with eternity. Again, these are not mutually exclusive, but when Christ Himself talked about Hell, describing it as a real place, does it not stand to reason that if we truly love our neighbor, wouldn’t we warn him about such an awful place?
If there is no Hell, what is there to be saved from? Why not just live any old way we please since there will ultimately be no justice against what we do? We need to give cups of cold water in Jesus name and at the same time, show them their need of a Savior, not just to make this life better, but to show them the Holiness of God and the way of escape from the wrath to come.
Chris, I think you and I (and Pix) are in similar territory. The one thing I’d like to dig a little deeper, though, was when you said, ” I look at Christ’s command to feed the hungry and clothe the sick, to be a peacemaker, to be willing to give up all I own to help others, and I just do not see the Right as embodying that belief and teaching. Granted, no souls are going to be saved through simple charity, but I believe we’re called to be servants so that our service serves as an opportunity to share the Gospel. ”
The notion about “no souls are going to be saved” is based on a very narrow understanding of the gospel as strictly being a transaction that guarantees entrance into the afterlife. However, the gospel that Jesus preached, what he called “The good news of the kingdom of God/Heaven”, has less to do with where we go when we die and more to do with how we live in the here and now.
The past few generations have been conditioned to think primarily (and perhaps only) in terms of “souls being saved” (i.e., the afterlife). However, Jesus was bringing an entire new way of LIVING that kept the point of the Torah without being burdened by the minutiae of the Pharisees and legalists. It was a way of living that was all about restoration – with God, with others, with self, and with the world. It was about a kind of liberty that was possible in spite of the empire at hand (in their case Roman, in ours American).
The availability of this way of living according to God’s desires/vision/will everyone was ultimately purchased by the blood of Christ. There were many metaphors harmoniously at work in this atonement, but the point is about how we live in the here and now – free from guilt, free from condemnation, free from the opinions of others (including the religious leaders of the day).
“Let your light so shine before men that they see your GOOD WORKS and glorify your Father in heaven.” We do good not in order to earn anything from God, but because we believe that it is God’s way and it is the BEST way to live. This change of mind/heart (i.e. repentance) shows up in what we DO (and if it doesn’t, then we really were never changed in the first place).
Regardless of who is elected, let us embrace this full gospel and live it out for the glory of God. Let us reject fear (it’s not a spirit God gives anyway). And let us forsake the principles of the empire as it seeks to keep what it has and instead freely give for we have freely received. 🙂
Jeff,
I believe that you are voting your conscience and I am glad that it is not Obama. If it were not for the specter of an Obama victory and the damage that his ideas and policies will inflict on this country, I would gladly consider voting for Chuck Baldwin. From what I have read about his platform, I would say the only thing I would disagree with is his stance on the war. He is a man of integrity, and a man of true principle, something very lacking in today’s politics. I’m sure you would be surprised at how much I agree with him, but that’s another discussion. As I have said previously, he has a snowball’s chance in a blowtorch of even picking up 1 vote in the Electoral College.
My discussion regarding revenge was a general comment to how many on the right that disagree with the Republicans have chosen to voice their opposition and there were many in 2006 that wanted to teach the Republicans a lesson by not voting. This has given us the worst Congress in my lifetime, and with an approval rating of only 9% (lower that George Bush I might add) what they did was give us a cure that was worse than the disease. By the way, it was not my intention to infer that you were one of these using their vote as revenge since you have mentioned previously that you DO vote. My intention is to get people to think through their motivation and vote accordingly. As far as I am concerned, if a person does not vote, they have no right to criticize the government they get because they deserve it.
How long did it take for us to get into this situation? At least 5 to 7 decades. Did this shift away from the Constitution and what it stands for happen overnight? Of course not. It has been the apathy of many Americans that has led us to this crisis and only when we all decide that we want to be involved in changing the landscape will there ever be a change.
If the Constitution Party wants to grow and be an actual force in the American political landscape they are going to have to focus on winning seats in their home state’s mayoral races, city councils, state houses, governorships, and eventually, seats in the House and the Senate. All the while they must utilize alternate media outlets in order to get their message out to the people. It will take a massive reeducation of the electorate in the founding principles of the Constitution and why a strict adherence to them will strengthen this country and make it the shining example of freedom it was intended to be. By focusing prematurely on the presidency, they have lost a great opportunity to show by example the greatness of the Constitution. Jeff, by your vote for the Chuck Baldwin and your discussions why you are voting for him, I know that you are a principled man and for that I have a great amount of respect for you, even in our disagreements. We just need to shore up the foundations.
In the meantime, we need to stand first and foremost for the sanctity of human life because all life is a gift and creation of God and the most helpless in our society deserve to live. I realize that many of you will cite the innocent people that have died in the war, so before any of you bring that up, first answer the question of whether or not you believe in concept of just war. If you do not believe in that concept we will have very little to discuss. Second, if you do believe in the concept of just war, please give an example of a just war and how it differs from the Iraq war. Now back to the first point, abortion is the greatest sin we have as a nation. I am reminded of this every time I hold my three month old nephew and my new niece that my brother and sister-in-law just adopted. Second, we need to start the process of getting us back to the Constitution (a concept I know that you support, Jeff).
It’s not going to be overnight, but we should not stand by as the country is taken over by the far left. If any of you are not voting, you share as much blame for this as anyone else in this election. I would encourage you to take an educated stand for what you believe and understand why you take your stand so you can defend it.
For me, the real danger for churches was never from outside. So, yes, Obama is probably going to win, but that’s not the end of the world.
The real danger are these pseudo-Christian movements that use the same attacks as Satan did in the Eden garden: “Did God really say ….? ”
We should be worried and be involved politically, however, there are at least three facts that will never change: 1) God will still be in control 2) Jesus will still save people 3) His true church will be triumphant.
John Piper was right: “Christians in the West are weakened by wimpy worldviews. And wimpy worldviews make wimpy Christians.” I would only add that wimpy gospels create wimpy Christians. It is only his true gospel that has the power to change us.
And once again, I have to agree with Jeff. I don’t consider myself Democrat or Republican. I’m a Christian and I have to vote my conscience, even with both sides have things I disagree with. I look at Christ’s command to feed the hungry and clothe the sick, to be a peacemaker, to be willing to give up all I own to help others, and I just do not see the Right as embodying that belief and teaching. Granted, no souls are going to be saved through simple charity, but I believe we’re called to be servants so that our service serves as an opportunity to share the Gospel. There is a pride and a callousness that I see in many of my conservative friends, an “every man gets what he desrves” mentality, that just seems to be the antonym of the humility, compassion and servant mentality shown in the Gospel. I don’t think Obama is our nation’s hope, but I do feel that his candidacy and party represent more of what I believe as I continue to grow in Christ.
Greg,
For me it has nothing to do with revenge and everything to do with not participating in injustice and not letting the carrot of this or that determine my vote. Much of this is looking at my own system of faith and evaluating it for what it is. I firmly think that the church of Jesus christ and the true conservative movement that we used to have in this country sold their soul to the devil when they married each other in the late 70’s.
Paul,
This is right on the money. We are so coddled here as American Christians. We are nothing but spoiled brats who shake our fists at God demanding what WE want. The whole Word of Faith movement is indicative of this very thing. When you here WOF preachers saying things like, “Big mouths get big rewards,” or, “Speak to your billfold and say you ‘big billfold full of money,’” it’s no wonder that the Lord told the church of Laodicea “Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.” (Revelation 3:17) The more I read and study the Bible, the more I understand that God has been so good to us, but because of our comfort, we have come to demand it. But I am afraid that the day of reckoning is almost upon us.
I am committed to do whatever I can to bring about the government that would please God, but I think that it is going to take many years and very small steps. First and most immediate is the defeat of Barack Obama. No, we do not have a perfect candidate in John McCain and I admit that some of his ideas are a just too populist for me, but he is the only one that can at least make a step in the right direction. (Pun intended!)
The bottom line is that God is Sovereign and His purpose will be revealed through this election, just like it has been throughout history. The same goes for the war in Iraq. Whether or not you agree with the reasons for the war, if God is truly sovereign, then the war is His will. All of this Monday-morning quarterbacking is actually pointless because we are there and we need to finish what we have started.
I know many of you disagree and I have no problem with that, but consider this. Are you trying to inflict your own brand of revenge against a party you feel has abandoned you? The Apostle Paul said in Romans 12:18-20, “If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.” Is your motivation revenge? Clearly, revenge and vengeance is reserved for God. And He will repay. (Even an administration that you believe lied, because only He really knows that whole truth)
We need to repent of our own sin of complacency and fall to our knees and cry out to the Lord in repentance. Then we need to be about the only reason for the church’s existence and that is the Great Commission. (Mark 16:15 – “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Even if we feed every human being on this earth, if we don’t share with them the hope that lies within us, we have only made their situation worse and their blood will be on our hands. (Ezekiel 3:16-21, Ezekiel 33)
As far as the American church facing persecution, One of my favorite hymns is “He Giveth More Grace.” This hymn is relevant because if God allows this nation to be destroyed and allows us to see persecution like that which is going on in the Orissa state in India, He will give the grace that we need to persevere and just as one of the Christians in Orissa has said, we will see more and more people come to salvation because of our suffering. The lyrics say:
“He giveth more grace when the burdens grow greater. He sendeth more strength when the labors increase. To added affliction, He addeth his mercy. To multiplied trials, His multiplied peace.
His love has no limit, His grace knows no measure. His power has no boundary known unto men. For out of His infinite riches in Jesus, He giveth, and giveth, and giveth again.”
God has an infinite well of mercy and grace. We only need to repent and trust Him.
Chris, I finished the Great Awakening a few weeks back. Every person that says they follow Jesus need to wrestle with the concepts in that book and ask themselves if they way they live their lives in accordance to what Jesus actually said. I did like how the book called for all of us to hold our leaders accountable, all of them and not take sides, Us v them.
I agree with Jeff. I’ve been reading Jim Wallis’ “A Great Awakening: Reviving Faith and Politics in a Post-Religious Right World” and I think that the Republicans and many mainstream Christians have deveated from what the Church is supposed to be in the world.
I’m Pro-Life, but I think both parties have extremely inconsistent views on the ethics of human life. Democrats, obviously, tend to be the party of Pro-Choice and in support of Euthanasia. But as a Christian I also find my conscience troubled by the Republican support of a war waged on lies and faulty information, refusal to commit to programs that could offer assistance and education to the poor, a health program that ensures that every American can afford to get better and the support of the death penalty, a punishment that flies in the face of everything we believe about God having the only right to take away life. If I’m Pro-Life, I’m going to be pro-life all the way and not just make abortion my one issue because the idea of infants emotionally manipulates me.
As Christians we are called to Preach the Gospel and I do not believe there is such a thing as a strictly social Gospel. But we are called to live as Christ lived, which means a life in which we put the needs of the less fortunate above our own desires and in which we question those in power and those with extreme wealth. It means living the Golden Rule and not being in favor of torture in any circumstance because that brings us down to their level. It means realizing that we may have to make a sacrifice and pay higher taxes so someone less fortunate can have the same opportunities that everyone else has.
I think what Paul quotes from John Piper is spot on. But then he goes from this theological discussion to make a cheap shot about Obama. I’m curious to know what evidence is shown that Obama is a “closet Muslim.”
I find this amazing, in light of the past 8 years how is electing McCain/Palin a positive for Christians? The more I understand the current Christian movement and what they stand for the more I actually agree with Paul that there is a heavy dose of judgment needed. Bush wants war, we are the first in line to back him, the administration allows and endorses torture, we make excuses for it. The administration along with the poor life and values republican congress passes tax cuts that even John McCain said were imbalanced towards the ultra rich and we say Go GWB. Who is paying for it? the has not’s, remember, the least of these? Yeah the folks that our leader (Jesus) spoke of often? The church cares more about building their mini empires more than helping the poor meanwhile they push hard for a government to get out of the lives of individuals who often times can’t help themselves. Paul you are right we are in need of judgment but we differ on how that will happen.
Here is a personal example of how backwards our church has become, in light of the economy my pastor decided to preach on how unfaithful the congregants are with God’s anointed tithe, of course he cherry picked the book of Leviticus to lay the foundation of “God’s economy”. He mentioned that some of the past faithful tithers hadn’t even given in September. Meanwhile as I sit and listen to this I am staring at a brand new very large very fancy auditorium. The focus is wrong; the church seems to think it is here to praise ourselves, not God. There are token efforts to help others but that is all it is. The pastor had to preach this because he has a huge mortgage and salaries to pay. Instead of finding the “unfaithful” tithers and asking what they could do to help he beat down his people with guilt because they are breaking God’s law, which is not a law since we are in the New Testament (double speak).
There was a recent event at a new church, Paul knows it quite well, and when I walked in I my stomach dropped at the unnecessary selfish, self serving stuff there as at this church. It is no longer about the least of these in our world. It is clear the church is no longer focused on it, I think this is why the rebels in the emergent church are now looking to government to assist because they see and distain what the church is now. I agree with them.
14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Malachi 3:14-18
During good times, when mankind in general benefits from the goodness of God…men rarely take note of the distinction between those who serve God and those who do not…soon, very soon, the distinction will be strongly marked…as God brings this scripture to fruition there will be no doubt that God marks those that are His for protection, granting them wisdom and strength to endure…Endurance will require an eternal viewpoint; if there be Stephens, many or few…they will be marked by boldness as we overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony… Consider your ways…Are you trusting in the Blood of the Lamb? …What is your testimony?