From the International Herald Tribune:
A Muslim scholar chosen to speak at President-elect Barack Obama’s inaugural prayer service Wednesday is the leader of a group that federal prosecutors say has ties to terrorists.
Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America, is one of many religious leaders scheduled to speak at the prayer service at Washington’s National Cathedral.
Mattson has been the guest of honor at State Department dinners and has met with senior Pentagon officials during the Bush administration. She also spoke at a prayer service at the Democratic National Convention in Denver.
But in 2007 and as recently as last July, federal prosecutors in Dallas filed court documents linking the Hartford, Conn.-based Islamic society to the group Hamas, which the U.S. considers a terrorist organization.
Greg, one more thing? along the lines of listening to trusted sources have you had a chance to read Scott McClellon book What Happened? I highly recommend it.
Arthur,
I understand how our government works, often times though, the executive branch is the one that proposes budget plans for the congress to pass.
Greg, thanks for clarifying I did not understand that. I would like it if our government stop classifying everything as a war on…..
Take for instance the war on drugs, our government has equipment (cost in the multi millions to purchase and operate) that can scan people’s houses to see if they are growing pot with certain growing equipment. I don’t do drugs but did in the past and have to tell you pot is a pretty tame drug, much more tame than alchohal. Why is our government spending so much of our money with that type of thing? If a person were growing it they would most likely consume it and not sell it. Meanwhile, we put people away for 15 years if they steal $1,000 (because he needs the money) and let people (basically) off if they steal 50 billion. we have a bass ackwards system of justice, some of which I think is driven by privatization. If you make the jail’s private then what is the incentive to keep people out of jail for those who own them? I think there is a middle ground where we should agree that the government should run certain things and industry should drive the rest. It seems that most politicians don’t think this way, the right says no public anything, the left says make everything public supported by taxes. I digress, good conversation, I have to get ready for work.
Jeff,
You totally missed what I was saying. The 5.1 billion dollar figure is not the debt, it is the amount the government actually spent to eradicate poverty during that time period. and we still have the poor. Like I said, Jesus was right!
Arthur,
Excellent point regarding 3 branches of government. Many people tend to forget this.
Ummm, J-Pix during the Clinton years the GOP controlled the Congress from 1994 to the election of George W. Bush so before you annoint him as a budget hawk keep in mind that his party lost control of congress shortly after he took office and the socialized health insurance debacle. You see, in our system of government we have three branches and the Congress has to pass the budget, the President doesn’t get to arbitrarily set the budget. Little details I know, but important to your argument.
Greg here is a fact for you to chew on.
You mentioned LBJ to 1993 went to a 5 trillion dollar debt. However, the debt was about 1 trillion prior to Reagan and Bush I. Clinton hardly raised the national debt and in fact had a budget surplus.now after 8 years of Bush II we are at about 11 trillion in debt. What do you expect from those who don’t believe in government?
Jeff,
To quote the conservative I admire the most, “Well, there you go again!” Without knowing and understanding the depths of my conservative convictions (which I might add were deeply formed and rooted in my mind even before Rush Limbaugh was just a flunky in the Kansas City Royals organization. That would be 1980, for those of you in Rio Linda!) you again have assumed that I support everything the Bush administration has done. Let me be clear (again, as if this is going to make any difference!) George W. Bush is a Republican before he is a conservative. I on the other hand am a Christian, first and foremost, then a conservative and have only registered as a Republican in order to vote in the primaries. While the Constitution Party has much to admire, they are not very active here in Texas and Chuck Baldwin was not even on the ballot here. While I am blessed to live in a congressional district represented by a true conservative, Michael Burgess (my district is Dick Armey’s former district), the majority of the Republican Party has left me. They have abandoned true conservatism for “Bi-partisanship!” All that means is that if we don’t press the agenda on which we ran, maybe more people will “like” us!! So now we have ended up with a bailout that will saddle us with trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see!
To put it in perspective, if you were to spend 1 dollar a second, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it would take you over 31,000 years to do it! I saw a statistic that since Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society and the war on poverty, by 1993 we had spent over 5.1 trillion dollars. That’s over 158,000 years in the scenario above! But yet, as Jesus Himself said, “For ye have the poor always with you” (Matthew 26:11a) I guess He was right!
Anyway, the point I was making regarding the “facts” that you so frequently site, tend to come from the left-leaning sources you list which definitely have a worldview which is contrary to my worldview. Now to be clear, a worldview is more than just an opinion. It is a deep rooted view of the world (hence the name) based on the person’s presuppositions. If the presuppositions are based on erroneous information, the worldview will also be in error. If you notice, I attempt to take arguments to their presuppositions (mind you not always successfully, as would seem to be the case here!) in order to either find my own errors in presuppositions or point out the other persons error in a way that would help them to actually see the world the way God created it, both in the physical and spiritual realm. To put this into perspective, if one wishes to go from point A to point B, the must figure out the precise angle at which they must travel to get to that point. If they make an error in the angle, no matter how sincere they are in their endeavor, they will never reach point B. It may take many course corrections (believe me, I’ve had to make many!) but each of us needs to base our worldview on the only thing that has proven itself to be reliable throughout the centuries, and that is the Word of God, the Bible. Forgive me if I misspeak here, but I have no recollection of your use of Scripture to back any of your conclusions. This is my main concern. To what extent do you hold to the exclusivity, infallibility, inspiration, and sufficiency of Scripture? I know you consider yourself a “Red-Letter Christian,” but what does that mean anyway? Does it mean that the only exclusive, infallible, inspired, and sufficient Word of God can only be found in the “Red-Letters?” Or is all of it exclusive, infallible, inspired, and sufficient? As if you couldn’t tell, I believe the latter and understand that the Bible is the progressive revelation of God, given over a 1500 year period through 40 different authors. If anything that I observe does not square with Scripture, obviously I am the one in error and need to reevaluate my observation because I have obviously missed something.
Now, regarding torture. The methods used by our military that some are just chomping at the bit to call torture in order to discredit the military (by the way, I do not consider you a part of that group) are what I refer to a extreme interrogation methods and I far as I can see have only been employed on the most hardened terrorists, such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the number 2 man in Al Qaida, and the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, the Richard Reid attempted bombing, the Bali nightclub bombing, the Daniel Pearl murder, and various other failed attempts. Who knows how many lives have been saved by the confessions of this terrorist. But his is an extreme case. There is no evidence, that I have seen, that would suggest that these techniques have been used indiscriminately. If they have been used indiscriminately, this is absolute wrong and those doing so should be court-martialed and those in the administration that authorized it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Now for a little history review. The late 1700’s saw two major revolutions that changed the world dramatically. First there was the American Revolution, which I believe is better named the War for American Independence. The first sentence of the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence is a lynchpin of what the founding Fathers were striving for. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. First of all, Life. Without life, what does the rest of it matter? Life is not only a gift from God Himself, ultimately, He is the one who has the right to decide who lives and who dies and He has instituted government for the safety and protection of society. Next, Liberty is listed second, not by accident. True freedom can only come when life holds the first priority. Where life is not precious, tyranny follows. Finally, the pursuit of Happiness. Notice it does not say guarantee of Happiness. With Life being the preeminent right and Liberty close behind, the opportunity to pursue your own Happiness is then possible. If you fail, it is not the government’s responsibility to bail you out. That is why we have bankruptcy laws to protect those who need it. In a truly free society, there is always the risk that you will fail in what you attempt. This should not be used as an excuse for the government to “run to the rescue!” The Bible is clear that if a man should not work, neither should he eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10. I know I know. It’s not red letters, but it’s inspired and true nevertheless! Sorry, just a little poke among friends!) This is one of the things I mean by limited government. Charity is better provided by the Church and the private sector, but there is no longer any real incentive to do so any more, due to the nanny-state. But I digress. Back to the topic at hand.
Next, we have the French Revolution. While they used the Declaration of Independence as a model, the French enumerated their “inalienable” rights as “Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity.” No mention of life. Without life as the preeminent right, all of these “inalienable” rights diminish the rights of individuals. Liberty, but free for what? Equality, denying that individuals are not equal in every sense, and Fraternity, promoting the idea that what group of which you are a part is more important than your individual rights. This has wormed its way into the mindset of many Americans today and it is to the point that they are willing to relinquish their freedom just so the government can solve all of their problems. Another major difference between the two “revolutions” is how each began. The American Revolution was not interested in overthrowing the British Crown, but having the freedom to separate from it. The French Revolution is marked by the storming of the Bastille and beheading Louis XVI, both acts of overthrowing the government.
For me the bottom line is that each of us must answer to God for what we do in this life. Without the sacrifice of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection in order to reconcile us to God, as the Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 15:19, “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” Since we all have to answer individually, our responsibilities and rights regarding our relationship with the government, the Apostle Paul discusses this in depth in Romans 13. Life must be the preeminent right for which we stand. As I said previously, extreme interrogation techniques should only be employed in the most extreme cases where there is an eminent danger of the loss of human life. Again, I cannot stress this enough. LIFE IS PREEMINENT! Also, our hope is in the Lord only, and not in government. The sooner we understand this, the sooner we will be able to reconcile the way the world is with the way it should be. God is sovereign. Whether a liberal or a conservative is the President that is the hope that we have. If you have read this far, you either really care about what I am saying or you certainly have nothing better to do! Take care and have a great day!
Greg,
I have given fact after fact in the past, all of which can be looked up but you and I know that you will not accpect them because you admitted that you get information for “those you trust”. Thus it is easy for you to buy in to what they are selling. Point of fact, you said, “We have not suffered an attack on our own soil since 9/11. That fact alone will solidify Bush’s place in history as a great president.” What is amazing about that is I recently heard that samething said on FoxNews, Rush and even the Paul Edwards show. Hmmm has the conservative echo chamber affected your thoughts? I don’t trust any sources, I look at all kinds to get my information. I watch the Young Turks, MSNBC, FoxNews and listen to Rush, Thom Hartmann and Paul Edwards.
I like Chris do not accept the scenario that “if my kids were kidnapped” that is a false scenario and only used to bring emotion into the converstaion. That situation did not exist when we performed torture on the folks we did. Once again, Chaney admitted it(fact), and were prosecuted the Japanese for it 60 years ago(fact), now it is OK? Keep thinking it is OK but I can only conclude that your minds have been seared. I saddens me to see it.
You mentioned the Obama here and mentioned nationalization, economic destruction, ect. Um, your guy Bush was front and center when this stuff happened, Remember?
So yes Greg, I do continue to present facts, but just like the way christians attack science, facts are a moot point. Facts only exist as far as you believe they do. I could give you a list of facts that you could look through but if the right wing noise machine doesn’t agree, neither will you.
I know I have been harsh as well, but I am sick and tired of seeing great people like yourself and many of my friends supporting actions like torture all in the name of political partisanship. Wrong is wrong, whether on the Right or Left.
Chris,
I admit that I came on a little strong. I understand what you are saying regarding how Christians should behave. However we must differentiate between governments and individuals. As far as individual Christians, Jesus gave us the best example in John 18:33-38.
“33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.”
Pay close attention to verse 36. He said that His kingdom is not of this world because if it were His followers would fight. Also notice that in any of the Gospels, Jesus never advocated overthrowing the government. One thing this says to me is that God ordained the government for maintaining order within society. This in conjunction with the value that God has placed on human life shows that He is the giver and sustainer of life. The book of Job deals extensively with who God is and who we are not! Life is God’s and must be defended. This is why I support extreme interogation methods whenever there is an eminent threat to human life.
To go back to the analogy of someone taking your child hostage, if they have already killed your child, that is a point where personal retribution is must be relinquished. If there is a possibility that your child is still alive, the government has the responsibility of finding your child and returning him safely, and I believe that includes extreme interogation.
This is a much deeper discussion than i can get to here and at this point, I am tiring of this argument because it’s a moot point.The Obama era is here and if he is a man of his word and follows through with his stated plans, we are in for one of the darkest times in our history. Abortion of demand running rampant, our econamic system destroyed, taxes through the roof, the government nationalizing every industry it can get it’s greedy little hands on, more people than ever depending on the government for their piddly little sustainance, and all the while we will be expected to praise Obama as our savior. I’m just not going to sit back and not stand for what I believe to the core of my being to be the truth. Because as our Lord Himself said, “The Truth shall set you free.” May we all realize what it is before it’s too late.
Wow Greg, chillax.
I understand your point about checking sources, and I agree that left-leaning liberals and right-leaning conservatives will always check the sources that are more in line with their ideology. It’s one of the reason we’ll never have peace and understanding between those involved in heavy politcs.
But I take issue with the idea that if some terrorist kidnapped and killed my child, the right thing to do would be “aggressively interrogate” them. Emotionally, I would want it done. But as a Christian, I shudder to think I would ever condone that. It goes back to Christ’s commands to treat others as we would want to be treated, loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. I don’t hate terrorists…I wish we would more be more public about our hope that they will experience the grace of God and come to Christ. As much as I would emotionally love to have vindication over someone who harmed my family members, I don’t believe it is ever morally correct to take extreme, sinful measures to do so. That would include torture or anything that deprives them of their humanity. We are called to be righteous, shining lights. In doing that, we should refuse to stoop to their level, NO MATTER WHAT. And if that means we put ourselves at greater risk…then that only speaks to how much we value doing the right thing, that we are willing to risk our own lives and our family’s because we believe in doing right.
I am not a fan of President Bush; I think he was not cut out for the job and I resent the way he used faith to gain support. But I do think history will be kinder to him than we are for his handling of 9/11, which was the best anyone could hope for.
However, I’m a little tired of the reiteration that his big success has been that we haven’t had an attack on American soil since 9/11. I’m thankful we haven’t been attacked but let’s not forget that the last attack from foreign terrorists on American soil was in the early Clinton days with the World Trade Center bombing. Let’s also remember that, since 9/11, we have had embassies targeted and bombed and American soldiers, civillians and journalists killed abroad. I’m glad we’re safe here, but I think Bush is partially to blame for the private American lives lost in Iraq and elsewhere since 9/11.
Jeff,
You know that I care about you and that I know you love your country. Your patriotism is not in question. That being said, have you not in the past implied that the Bush administration’s ties with oil and oil services companies, like Halliburton, is a reason to suspect their motives in starting this war? Why can’t that same reasoning be used to suspect the likes of Ingrid Mattson and her link to Hamas via the Holy Land Foundation (convicted of 108 charges of funneling money to Hamas in the name of “charity”) of terrorist leanings?
You have not proven your point that the President and his administration actually LIED about going to war. We have discussed this point ad nauseum and you have not given any conclusive evidence of a conspiracy to go to war. Much of what you give as evidence is similar to what the drive-by media and fringe left blogs are saying and then you accuse us of using more right leaning sources as our basis. (Well, SHAZAM! We ARE Conservatives!) The discussion boils down to who is more credible. Obviously, the sources I check and site are the ones I trust the most, but more than any other source, the Bible needs to be our supreme source and all of our opinions should fall in line within the whole context of Scripture.
Let’s bring it closer to home. If terrorists were to kidnap your children and threaten to torture and kill them if we do not capitulate to their demands, and one of the terrorists know to be affiliated with those how have take your children has been captured, how would you react if the government did not interrogate him to the point of giving up information that would save your children’s lives? I doubt seriously that you would want the government to just wait until they are good and ready to talk! It is an unjust situation that causes us to decide between two choices that are both horrible. Do we allow the terrorists to kill the children, as well as giving them cause to attack again, or do we aggressively interrogate them in order to save not only their own lives, but possible the lives of hundreds of others? The ideal situation would be that the terrorists would get it through their thick skulls that killing innocent life is beyond evil, but do you REALLY think THAT is going to happen? When life is at stake, we must do everything in our power to preserve it. Over 60 detainees from Guantanimo Bay have been released, only to go back to the conflict and kill again. I predict that Obama will sign an executive order to close the prison, but will drag his feet on actually closing it so he can come back and say that the Bush administration did not share all of the intelligence they had on how dangerous these detainees ACTUALLY are!
You have attacked our Christianity (mine and Paul’s) on many occasions regarding whether or not the military has engaged in torture or not, but have not discussed the fact that the terrorists attacked us and have made it abundantly clear that their objective is to wipe out both the State of Israel and the United States. Thousands of lives have been lost due to these people. Many of those lives could have been saved if we would have taken this threat more seriously throughout the last 50 or 60 years. These people use schools, private homes and mosques as weapons depositories. Where is the condemnation of this practice? We must understand the only way to “appease” and satisfy these people is for our total destruction. How in the world to you negotiate with that? They continually plot to kill us and we sit by worried about how we look to the world. Who does the world look to in order to help them in times of disaster and crisis? We have done everything in our power to rebuild all of our enemies after we have defeated them. This is the biggest testament to our Christian heritage. Saving lives has always been our priority. This is why the terrorists “human shields” are so effective.
Ok, since it’s Inauguration Day and Bush is no longer President, let’s just string him up along with all of his cronies and prosecute them for war crimes. Would that make you happy? Better yet, let’s just try them all for treason. Maybe if we just fry them, and then those of us who support them just turn ourselves in and take the same punishment because we DARED to support saving American lives, will that satisfy you?
Yeah, I’m just a little perturbed. I am sick and tired of hearing so many people continue to trash Bush. We have not suffered an attack on our own soil since 9/11. That fact alone will solidify Bush’s place in history as a great president. So, what do I say? Get over it! It is now the Age of Obama! I know that I will not agree with the majority of the positions that the new President will take and I will exercise my right to voice that disagreement in a civil, non-personal way, but He is my President. I hold the office in high esteem and pray for his safety and for the Lord to work in his heart to change it for God’s glory and not for man’s glory. If that means that he continue with his plans as they stand at this point, so be it. In the meantime, I will pray that the Lord will work in my own heart and change me where I need to change for His glory.
I don’t know about whether or not torture is legal or illegal. But I think we would all agree as Christians that it is immoral and a violation of Christ’s commands to love our enemy, pray for those who persecute us and treat others as we wish to be treated. As simply an American, you may be able to defend it…but I have no idea how a Christian can ever look at torture and say it’s a justifable means to an end.
Derek Webb has a great line about building the Kingdom using the devil’s tools. That’s what torture does; we lower ourselves to their level but feel justified in saying that we’re doing it “by the law.”
There’s a concern about protecting our freedom, but I wonder if our freedom is worth having if we have to resort to such means to protect it. Perhaps part of being the bigger nation and honoring God means we also accept the risk of doing the right thing.
If the person that you support, admits to a certain action, and that action is considered torture by international law, of which we prosecuted the Japanese of doing to us in WWII. Wouldn’t that be something that you would need to renounce? We prosecuted the Japanese for doing it to our soldiers. We considered it torture then, it is somehow OK since we define it as “enhanced interrogation”? It’s all in how you define it. Hey, if you folks can live with is it, God bless. If you can, I would seriously wonder if the election includes you, and I mean in Calvinistic terms.
“What are you going to tell your Lord someday when he asks why you supported torturing his people”
A good stretch in the morning is helpful once in a while…but this is definitely unreachable by any standard…
BTW, Chaney admits to waterboarding it is illegal according to international law and considered torture. What are you going to tell your Lord someday when he asks why you supported torturing his people?
Paul,
Congress authorized a bill that had to meet certain conditions, the Bush administration decieved the American public (Mushroom cloud, immenant threat, remember that?) to make sure those conditions(or our perception of them) were sufficent enough to go to war. They ignored anyone who said otherwise, like Mohammed Elbaradei, look it up THOSE are facts. Now they say “Well, we made a mistake.” I honestly don’t know how you can have christian convictions and support this and sleep at night Paul. I truly amazes me. The war in Iraq has NOTHING to do with my freedom, it has everything to do with war profiteering and oil. Don’t spin it like that, I can love my country and still think that war is wrong, and think it has nothing to do with freedom. In fact, freedoms since the war have been hampered more in the last 5 years than they have the entire 230 years of this country. Of course, in the right wing world that you live in anything that you don’t agree with or is against those you agree with is all left wing liberal propaganda, never mind the facts. I honor and respect anyone who give their lives to go to war, even if the war is wrong and unjust. There is always two sides to a coin Paul, I am sure you realize this but would never admit it.
The term “terrorist” as applied to Hamas or anyone associated with or funding their activities, is not one “loosely” applied. Just ask the thousands of Israeli’s who have had their lives disrupted for the last several years as they patiently endured a non-stop barrage of rocket attacks. If Canada were doing this to Detroit, with rockets landing in your front yard in Sterling Heights, I’m certain you would narrowly understand that you were being terrorized.
If you could actually prove Iraq was an “illegal war” and that torture as defined by the Geneva Conventions took place there or at other locations where terrorists are (were) being held, I would be the first Christian in line to cry out against it. The facts are, Jeff, you are just wrong.
The liberal chant of “illegal war” and torture” has run it’s course, Jeff. Congress authorized the war, appropriated the funds for the war, and those prosecuting the war used and are using every legal means necessary to keep you free to continue posting these kinds of unfounded responses to whatever I post here.
Terrorist, hmmm, don’t you guys ever wonder why that term is so loosely used? I mean, in the 80’s we supported Bin Laden and his “Freedom Fighters”, now they are terrorists. It’s all in your perspective I suppose. Of course many yell 9/11, but never wonder what kind of “terrorist” actions our government has done throughout the years to initiate that kind of hate. I love this country and it’s values, but our government has done an awful job in reflecting the true America abroad. If this were a “christian nation” then our christians should be in the front of the line when it comes to illegal wars and torture. The secularist blow our doors off then it comes to following Jesus when he said love your neighbor as yourself.
Next you guys will be co-editing: The Politically Incorrect Guide to Inaugural Events
He needs a an elderly black female bisexual transgendered terrorist in a wheelchair and I think he would need one prayer.
Now if he could have found a gay terrorist, he could have killed two birds with one stone.