A majority of evangelical Christians across the broad spectrum of evangelicalism (liberal to moderate to conservative) OPPOSE same-sex marriage if the results of a new Calvin College poll on religion and public life are to be believed. Forty-eight percent of liberal to moderate evangelicals oppose same-sex marriage.
This poses a significant problem for Barack Obama’s outreach efforts to evangelicals. On the same day he announces that he would expand President Bush’s faith-based initiatives, there surfaces a letter the senator from Illinois wrote to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club in California in which Obama says he supports…
“…extending fully equal rights and benefits to same-sex couples under both state and federal law. That is why I support repealing the Defense of Marriage Act [DOMA] and the ‘Don’t Ask Don’t Tell’ policy, and the passage of fully inclusive laws to protect LGBT Americans from hate crimes and employment discrimination. And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states.”
Colin Hansen, writing for Justin Taylor’s Between Two Worlds blog:
The New Republic reports that these stands make Obama far more favorable to gay rights than were the Democratic running mates in 2004, Sen. John Kerry and Sen. John Edwards. Hugh Hewitt weights in with the doomsday scenario: “If Obama is elected and he leads majorities in the House and Senate to repeal DOMA, eight judges in two states–California and Massachusetts–will have reversed 3,000 years of law and culture in the West.” Peter Wehner criticizes Obama for equating support for traditional marriage with bigotry. “He has now taken a position that strikes me as fairly extreme: same-sex marriages ought to be imposed by the courts, even if the citizens of that state object–thereby making an already-contentious social issue even more contentious.”
Anthony,
1- it’s not the sole reason, but a big one.
2- When looking at Obama vs McCain, I would have to say with NO DOUBT that Obama will be picking judge MUCH, MUCH further away from conserative, then McCain would. I don’t think you can say Obama would pick a more conservative judge then McCain. That would be streching it a bit.
Don’t get me wrong, I am NOT happy with McCain as a choice, but given that we have to deal with him or the other guy for FOUR YEARS, it makes me have to at least consider him. There are many things that McCain has done that makes me as a conservation unhappy, but looking at Obama, there is a BIG difference. The point I was trying to make above is do I go with the lesser of “two evils”, or a third party candidate. NOT that McCain is a great choice a person without problems, I just think some of his problems are not as bad as some of Obama problems. Once again, my opinion.
I keep hearing conservatives cite the issue of Judicial appointments as the sole reason they are going to vote for McCain while holding their nose. For those people, I think a reminder that McCain was a leading member of the Senate “Gang of 14” is in order. McCain and six Republican cohorts joined forces with 7 Dems in order to stop Republican leadership from putting forth Bush’s most conservative nominees for a vote. Why would you ever think that you would get conservative judges out of McCain???
When it come to voting for the lesser fo “two evils” or voting for a third party candidate that values, morals and ethics are more in line with my beliefs, this is going to be a big questions for many American in this election. Principles verses Pragmatism?
I would love to say that people will vote on principles and not pragmatism, but in reality I think the majority of American’s let other things influence their voting. I would love to vote for a third party candidate with principles simular to my own, so that my vote would truely represent me and my beliefs. Yet, as much as I do not like either Obama or McCain (and I am a long time conservitive Republican) on many issues, I do have to face the fact that if I do not vote for one of the lesser of “two evils” (because lets face it, no third party has any chance in winning the election, not even close), that I will be possible be allowing the worst of the “two evils” to win.
I am given this right to vote as a privliage, since many before me had to fight hard (even some to death) for my privliage to be in this country that allows me to have a vote. The idea of the worst of “two evils” being in control of the White House for 4 years and the damage that person can cause over those 4 years are things I have to prayerfully consider when I make my vote in November.
Letting the Republicans stay in the “dog house” for 4 year might be what they need to get thier priorities in order with real conservatives in this country. At this point I am close to letting the Republican Party see that can’t take conservative votes like me for granted as they have seemed to have done over the last 8 years. Yet, I also can imagine what the last 8 years would have been like if a Democrat was in charge and that in my opinion not a better picture if your honest, a different picture yes, but not a better one (of course that is my opinion).
The next President will get to appoint many judges that do seem to have the final say in this country to the laws that effect our lives, and that’s besides the many other things that the next President will do that will effect this country and the world around us.
As I heard one conservative person say when comparing Obama and McCain. We can have Obama, who we agree with 20-30 percent of the while disagreeing with 70-80 percent of the time. Or, we can have McCain, who we agree with 70-80 percent of the time while disagreeing 20-30 percent fo the time. Do you want the person you disagree with 70-80 percent of the time, or the person you agree with 70-80 persent of the time? I thought that was a good question since we will have either Obama or McCain as our next President whether we like it or not. Whoever wins to be President, you and I along with this whole country have to live with that person as President for 4 years.
It’s like you are stuck with one of two roommates for college and do you want to live with the one you get along with 20-30 percent of the time or the one you get along with 70-80 percent of the time? I mean, you’re only going to be stuck with this roommate for 4 years (well maybe 8 years but that’s another story), so who is it going to be?
I have not made a final decision on this yet, I am praying that God’s Will, will be done. Which my hope and faith and trust is in God and His Will, and I have peace in that knowledge of God Sovereignty. I do know that God has given me the responsiblitiy to use my vote for the His greater good. I am not to use my vote for selfish gains. Is that to pick the lesser of “two evils” or to pick a third party candidate? I am not 100% sure yet of that answer (I might be leaning in one direction right now, but only God knows when November comes), but I know in the end it will all be to God Glory, even if I can’t see that big picture that God sees.
Hey on a side note, we can at less all Thank God on this 4th of July that we live in a country that (at least currently, because you will never know where all our votes will lead us in history in regard to the laws and possible Constiution amendments for our rights as U.S. Citizens) where we have free speech to debate on these issues and the right to vote for our government representatives (even if the choices are not great). There are pleant of people in this world living in country that free speech and fair elections are not even possible.
May you all have a Happy 4th of July and God Bless!
“would our God side with the lesser of two evils because He thought that person had a better chance of winning? Or would our God support the one who most closely resembled the values of His own kingdom?”
As Commander-in-Chief of the World…I don’t think God sides with any of our plans…the quandry that we are faced with here, is how do we promote the commond good of our land…we cast the lot…but God causes the lot to fall where he wants it…does that remove our responsibility from us…I don’t believe so. November is afar off…and there are still many twists and turns in the road leading to the election booth… It is good that we live in a land where the questions we have about this process can be stated freely …The most important thing that we can do is get ears to hear…This comes directly prorportionate to the measure with which we appropriate the Word of God.
Ambassadors don’t speak or choose for themselves; they act on behalf of the one that sent them to carry out their ruler’s plans and desires. If we are God’s ambassadors with our citizenship in Heaven, then would our God side with the lesser of two evils because He thought that person had a better chance of winning? Or would our God support the one who most closely resembled the values of His own kingdom?
Choose wisely, my friend.
Thanks d
“BTW, the “lesser of 2 evils” trumps the “worst of 2 evils” in my world, but then, it is your choice~~or is it? se la vie”
Not when there are other choices….
My point is simple. You have several options but few are a viable solution. “Choose you this day” and then be prepared to live with the results. Judges 17:6
BTW, the “lesser of 2 evils” trumps the “worst of 2 evils” in my world, but then, it is your choice~~or is it? se la vie
d,
So what is your point in challenging me, my question relates to the pragmatic approach to voting for the lesser of 2 evils by people who speak against pragmatism. What is your point?
Pixel
You pick your pastor, you pick your wife and you pick who you cast your vote for president. The point is as so stated in my opening post, we are indeed a “house divided” and according to Jesus we “cannot stand”! The proof is in the pudding.
I’m neither Armenian nor Calvinistic, but the tenor of the temperament displayed in some of these posts should be a cause for concern. Is there not a benefit to contentment anymore? Much of this sounds like a bunch of Baptists at a Wed night business meeting. People of God, what should our message be? Is there not a cause?
d,
Your analogy is simply nieve, I don’t elect my pastor, my wife or mother. I am born to my mother, and choose my wife and church that I go to, I didn’t compromise on any. Voting for McCain because he is the lesser of two evils is an extreme compromise for social conservatives. Get over the idea that Godly = Republican
d…If I changed my name to Jane…might it make me a different person????
Pixel
Have you ever had a perfect Pastor? A perfect wife? A perfect mother?
What should you do if not?
Nancy,
Your not nearly as Calvinistic as you purport. But then neither was Charles Spurgeon, much to the disdain of those that are and were.
May I recommend, just be a Biblicists, not a Calvinist, or Armenian, just a follower of Christ and His Word.
As I look at this, one of the only reasons for voting McCain over Obama is judges. Let’s be real here, the president can do NOTHING for abortion, they cannot make law. However, the right is painting McCain as if he is golden on his judgement of judges. Any who pays any attention to McCain knows he is far from trustworthy on his word(as if any politician is). He has pandered to the left throughout his tenure many times. On the other social causes, McCain and Obama virtual mirror each other. In fact, when it comes to personal moral character Obama wins hands down, he is a person of faith(by his word), he has been married once and still married to his first wife. Whereas McCain left his first with because she was involved in an accident and was not the “trophy” wife he desired. Family values? You act as if an Obama election would ruin our country. Let me tell you, the last 7 years has done a lot to get us into ruin already. You know what? With right wing control, NOTHING has been done for the rights social causes, NOTHING. So I ask, why don’t we use our vote and vote principle over pragmatism and show the republicans not to mess with the christian right. If you think McCain is any better than Obama you are sorely mistaken.
First…there is something WRONG with this equation…
Calvinist = Fatalist…If I as a Calvinist, see a clear and present danger, and it is made obvious to me that I can help to keep this danger from becoming a reality…it is my responsibility to do so within the means at my disposal. Here is where the guidance of the Holy Spirit comes into play along with God given mental capacity to reason. What is the depth of the danger? One at which I can just make a check mark against it saying ummmmmm. Or is it one that requires an all out defense. Under the all out defense catagory you reason how to effectively totaly deny its progress… How strong will your stand agaist evil be???? All that being said…Our God is still sovereign and his ultimate will, will indeed come to pass. Does our sovereign God sometimes elect for evil leaders rise to power…YES…should we elect them to power…ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Here is my question for those like Mr. Edwards who are thinking of pragmatically voting for McCain because it is the lesser of two evils. You are admittedly Calvinistic, and you believe in the ultimate sovereignty of God. However, I here you say you will hold you nose and vote McCain to try to prevent an Obama presidency. I know you will disagree, but this seems like a huge conflict with your calvinistic views. So what if Obama gets the presidency, God is in control. McCain is clearly more liberal on many social issues that conservatives have been fighting for many years, yet many are willing to give him a pass for pragmatism. Seems to conflict.
Colin,
“Where in the New Testament does Jesus’ problem with the religious crowd have to do with those who had God ‘figured out’, or who were divisive?”
Because, they knew scripture better than everyone else and walked around in judgment of everyone who wasn’t as “saved” as they were. They knew God’s “rules” better than others. Very similar to what we expericance today, if you can’t see it you are not looking hard enough.
d,
It would be a principled vote, not one that is framed by two political parties whose policies are pretty much the same. it would tell the republican party that we are not sheep and they cannot just count on our vote.
Gentlemen,What would be accomplished by a vote for Chuck Baldwin? I already know your answer, what I attempt here is to prompt you to a logical conclusion and then a question in your own minds; what do we do now, for the next four years?
Hey,
just wanted to let you all know my blog is up at colinsamul.wordpress.com
I have three posts so far.
By the way Pixelmaster,
Where in the New Testament does Jesus’ problem with the religious crowd have to do with those who had God ‘figured out’, or who were divisive?
I was also a supporter of Ron Paul in the primary. The GOP establishment didn’t seem to like the mirror he was holding up for them. Reminded me a lot of Zel Miller and the Dems.
Speaking of wrong things our “leaders” do in the name of “protecting” us. Check out Christopher Hitchens, ardent support of the “war on terror” when he tries out waterboarding.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808
How any christian can backup our leadership who endorses this act on anyone is beyond me. It reminds me of the scripture about in the last days good will be call evil and evil will be called good. Our Christian leaders should be leading the way in calling to task the aweful actions of the people they assisted into office. Instead, we hear crickets. I am fired up folks this type of stuff needs to be shared with other people of faith. we need to be mad as #*$& about this.
Those evil little emotocons they can change our rants into a joke all the time!
It’s called pragmatism, I have heard Mr. Edwards speak against it many times, but in this case it appears that the pragmatic approach seems King. (Paul, this is not meant as an insult I am just calling it like I see it)
Another thing, Baldwin was a big supporter of Ron Paul and Mr. Edwards has spoken very clearly that Dr. Paul is a coock for saying “absurd” things like this Iraq war is unconstitutional. The reason is, this is a stance that the left takes and right winger always agree with Bush if the left has anything to say about it, whether it is factual or not. Right is always right and Left is always wrong. Sometimes the Left is right, we as christians should desire truth, whether he be republican or democrat.
BTW, I was a supporter of Ron Paul and I really like what I see from Chuck Baldwin. I may flip the switch for him in Nov. If all evangelicals told the Republican party to get lost it would send a huge message to them.
Pixel, the precedent to support Guantanamo was set long ago by FDR, and I’m not talking about the Japanese internment camps. FDR placed Nazi soldiers in prison camps in Alabama indefinitely and was SUPPORTED by the Supreme Court. I feel strongly that the lefties of the Supreme Court erred. What I also find ironic is that those who oppose the military tribunals for the enemy combatants are of the same cloth who would like to see our own military tried by them (i.e. Jack Murtha).
Paul, I know we’ve discussed this in the past, but I still don’t understand how you could cast a vote for the GOP candidate based upon the “lesser of two evils” theories. You have the power of one vote, and until people like us start exercising that one vote with our conscience, we will be stuck in this two party garbage political system which has evolved. I will be voting for Chuck Baldwin, and I will be very happy to do so, regardless of the consequences.
The “Righties” are bad…the “Lefties” are worse…So what do we DO??? Throw up our hands and stand in the middle???? The hands up approach is probably a good one if our hands are raised to God. *: ) Then if we are standing in the middle of the tracks… He can tell us which way to jump. *: )
BTW, I never intended to add a winking smiley as I am not happy about that issue…..
Paul,
I listen to various right wing shows and it is clear that the strategy is attack Obama. I have stated this before that over 7 years of Bush, there are a lot of young evangelicals who no longer drink the republican kool-aid. I am very concerned that the House, Senate and White house will go too far to the left that it will be an inverse of what we saw in 2002 to 2006. Corruption, just like it did in 4 year of Right wing domination will abound. Hard-line left and hard-line right will do nothing to fix the issues in their country. BTW, I think I am starting to come to grips with the fact that Roe v Wade will not change ever, and I think it is time to rethink the fight. This is especially the case when you realize that most of the folks that run on a pro-life, pro family platform are the biggest hypocrites in there personal lives and care nothing about the social issue but only care for our sheepish vote. Christians need to stop making politics their God, they look to much to the Republican party as the solution to their social ill’s. God and the love of Jesus Christ is the answer and we all know the way Jesus addressed orthodox thought of his day. I firmly believe that if Jesus were here today, that many of his followers who walk around in judgment of a sinful fallen world would reject him and his “updated” message. Jesus rejected those who had God all figured out, he rejected judgment and divisiveness, all characteristics of the Christian right. Maybe we need to follow his example and tell the family organizations to severe ties to politics and use the “Love the sinner, hate the sin” approach, instead of “hate the sin and not care a lick about the sinner”. Maybe a third awakening would take place in this country…..
BTW, the court is very much right if you include centrist. We have 3 left leaning, 2 centrist and 4 hard line right wingers. The Habeus Corpus decision put me over the top at how crazy the hard-line right wingers on the court are. Imagine our country, putting people away, for no definable reason(loosely defined “enemy combatants”) and not letting them defend themselves. That is a precident that cannot be let run amuck, it could someday be used against Christians. If they are guilty, put them away, if they are innocent let them go but let them have a voice, Muslim are humans too. We are ALL created in God’s image.
Pixel,
I have already taken McCain to task for his postion on this issue. See my post here: http://godandculture.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/the-inarticulate-john-mccain/
Nowhere on this blog have I endorsed John McCain, though back in January I did acurately predict that he would indeed be the Republican nominee – and that was when every conservative blogger in America was hyping Romney.
It is highly likely that I will vote for John McCain – not because he is the best choice for conservatives, but he is the only choice that conservatives have among the candidates on the ballot in November that stands a chance at actually winning the election and who will not allow the Supreme Court to drift any farther to the Left than it already has as well as protecting a women in the womb’s right to life.
As I stated on the IM yesterday, Paul, McCain is no better on this issue. Since it is hard for the hard right to support McCain and his record it appears the strategy is all out attack on Obama. Let’s be fair here, McCain has flip flopped on his positions so much that I don’t know how anyone on the right can be comfortable flipping the switch for him.
Hugh Hewitt’s conclusion presents a glaring omission.
Where is God in this dilemma?
With that being stated, a much wiser source also concludes…”and if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”
To be in the a-mill, or post camp presents quite a difficult answer.
Even so come Lord Jesus!