John Piper says in a recent blog post at DesiringGod.org:
What I want to say about Fundamentalism is that its great gift to the church is precisely the backbone to resist compromise and to make standing for truth and principle a means of love rather than an alternative to it. I am helped by the call for biblical separation, because almost no evangelicals even think about the doctrine.
Read the full post here.
Pixelmaster
The way I see it, Yes. ~~~ Not to say there was not some of that element present at all times. In those days Dr Jack Hyles represented the right, Dr. G.B. Vick was a centrist, and others like Bruce Melton were on the left. I don’t know your age so these names may mean nothing to you. (somehow, for the sake of fellowship we were able to come together and hold meetings and rejoice in the goodness of our God). Suffice to say; In a great house there are many vessels.
To address the issue of the fruit of the Spirit I subject my opinion to a greater than myself:
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
And herein Pixelmaster, you stand correct!
God Bless your attempts to serve Him, for He alone is worthy.
don sivyer
(boasting excluded, pride I abase, I’m only a sinner, saved by grace)
Don,
So if I understand you correctly, there has been a major shift in fundamentalism, is this what you are saying? The reason why I ask is because as I mentioned, I was in that camp for a very short period and was sickened by what I saw. So much so that I was driven more to the liberal camp. The arrogance, lying for God’s sake, piety, bigotry, and many times hatred for anything outside of their narrow view of the world was amazing to me. I did not see God in that, and if that was God, hmmm I was not very happy to spend eternity with that. However, I knew that this was not a true representation of God so I started looking at those whose heart was in it for God and truly serving God and others. Brian Mclaren’s books have really helped me to appreciate God and love him as well as love all humanity. In doing so I really want to reach out and help them, as I think this is what Jesus was about. Getting back to my thoughts on scripture, I feel it is very vital to understand God, but I think there is a lot in scripture that we just don’t understand. However, the fundamentalists that I have witnessed have boldly proclaimed that they have the answers in scripture and of course, their understanding is always right (no humility). This is why there are so many denominations. Man’s many doctrines too often get in the way of God, I think God is much larger than that. Piety, self-righteousness, arrogance, bigotry, lack of humility, etc are not the fruit of the spirit, the fundy’s that I know seem to forget that.
Pixelmaster
I came back in to check your response and Paul had not updated yet.
As I was re-reading our correspondence I noticed something;
I might be a Fundamentalists still, at least in the old sense.
I still believe most all that crowd taught me. You know, that stuff like, Ye must be born again, and there should be a noticeable difference between a Christian and the world ( the places they frequent, the language they engage, the attire they adorn, the entertainment they seek). And that stuff about the Bible, you know, you can trust it, count on it, and live by it, I still accept these as fact. After almost 40 years of this idiocy I’m still with them.
I heard something Sunday that should make a Presbyterian shout, and maybe even wave a hankie (Chuck Steele), or shout AMEN, GOSPEL TRUTH (chief) across the auditorium.
Here it is for all of us:
After Judas had betrayed Jesus, and brought the soldiers to apprehend him, our glorious Lord, (knowing what was done already) greeted him as~~~ “friend”! This man receiveth sinners.
And after Peter denied him, when he had arose, He told them to~~~ go tell Peter!
And after David committed murder and adultery,~~~ he called him a man after God’s heart.
Now with all this under consideration, I leave us with these final questions;
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
And,
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved)
And,
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
These brethren drilled into the heart of this child of the MOST HIGH GOD that ~~ I’m in,~~ I’m safe,~~ and I like Paul can say;
…for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day!
~~And for this assurance I owe them a un-payable debt of gratitude.
Do you have a hankie I may borrow? I left mine at the alter.
Pixelmaster
Thanks for a measured response. First of all I’m a Biblicists. Fundamentalism left the party a long time ago. Secondly, the issue to me is not, fundy, liberal, biblicists, Baptist, Presbyterian, or Methodists.
“What does that mean to a Fundamentalists”? I suppose that if you were to ask one, he might in turn ask you, how can the bible be at all “authoritative” or “vital to our faith”, filled with errors?
How do you know which part to rest your eternal destination on?
Now from the inner diggings of my brain;
2 Timothy 3:16
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
1. All, not some. Do you have scripture?
2. Given by God, not man. Given now, or only the first time?
3. Is profitable for doctrine. Is it still profitable? Which parts?
Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Define “pure”, then proceed.
Just once, or seven times?
Matthew 18:21-23
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Does this principle apply today?
Which theologians are you willing to trust?
How many more errors could you fine should you drop a bag of dimes?
How do you know how to “love God”?
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him
Which words are you to keep? ~~~ Or which words are you to reject?
How do you know what the “truths about God in scripture” are?
And on the contrary, I cannot view anything that God does, as anything LESS THAN, “perfect, inerrant, or flawless”
There is a choice to be made, either you trust and believe God or you trust and believe these theologians. I have already made my choice, as you can see.
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Please note my “theologian”,~~ He is well trained!~~ Matter of fact, he is the best teacher I have ever encountered.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come
When I stand before the throne, I’ll stand in Him complete.
I hear the Savior say,
“Thy strength indeed is small;
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in Me thine all in all.”
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim,
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.
And now complete in Him
My robe His righteousness,
Close sheltered ’neath His side,
I am divinely blest.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy power and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
When from my dying bed
My ransomed soul shall rise,
“Jesus died my soul to save,”
Shall rend the vaulted skies.
And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I’ll lay my trophies down
All down at Jesus’ feet.
Everything, every debate, originates at the “Yea Hath God Said” society.
Pixelmaster, either you serve an Omniscient, Omnipotent God, or you have no god at all.
Lord bless your thought process today.
Hey, Don
Thanks for the comments, here is what I am trying to understand though. You said “The entirety of all we discuss here is based upon the belief that the word of God is inerrant.” I can give you a list of 50 errors in scripture at the drop of a dime. What does that mean to a fundamentalist? If you view scripture as inerrant, God Breathed, flawless, and theologian after theologian points out errors in the texts, additions in later manuscripts, variations in the words. I view scripture as authoritative; I view it as vital to our faith. I cannot view it as perfect because facts prove are it is not. So I am trying to dig into the brain of someone who it fundamental about these things. What do you do with factual information that points to an imperfect text?
Further thoughts from my perspective, fundamentalism tries to drive home that the text is perfect and further that persons interpretation is even more perfect(the reason we have so many denominations). The more liberal theology that I think I am moving towards says there are many truths about God in scripture; God wants us to follow them, seek him, and love him with all our heart soul mind and strength. I was with the fundy camp for a short period and I found myself in a constant defense mode, trying to defend and justify God. I now feel that loving God more shows his light in me in a better way to a world that needs him.
Pixelmaster
Quite simply put;
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1 Corinthians 11:28
But let a man examine himself….
It appears that we operate from a different base. If a person starts with the premise that the operating manual is flawed, with errors or contradictions, how is it possible to ever find truth? That is like taking an algebra test with calculus notes. The entirety of all we discuss here is based upon the belief that the word of God is inerrant. Why bother if it is not? Please consider this.
May the Lord bless you.
Don,
You said “Be careful. if your hypothesis be true, and their is contradictory passages in the bible, we have nothing to stand upon but mans point of view. With this as our only option we become as the old testament descendant’s where every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”
I guess this is my point with fundementalism; there are contradictions in the Bible. Many of them in fact, does fundamentalism simply ignore them or are there plausible answers. I honestly don’t know. This is where I have an issue with the concept of infallible, inerrant, etc. I think it is authoritative and very critical to our faith but not perfect by all means. Fundamentalism views the Bible as a foundational issue, and when someone comes along, like me a points out that there are issues in translation throughout the centuries then it an issue. The more I understand this the more I appreciate what folks like Brian McLaren have to say. We didn’t have a readable Bible until the beginning of the modern era 1500, 1600’s. So what did Christians do without the Bible before that time?
I say this not to minimize its importance but I think the Bible it put too much in almost an idle status. Does that make any sense?
Pixelmaster
Fundamentalism has always had a broad band of adherents such as many groups do. This movement had from its inception basically stayed on there coarse, with only the issues they fought, changing as the times changed until the late seventies. The reasons are too plentiful to go into in a blog as this. Suffice it to say, in this commenter’s opinion, the church owes God a great amount of praise for his gift of this group to us. We were taught to think for ourselves, take our own positions, and grow to a higher level of Christian maturity than we were at. Biblical separation on the other hand has been a bible principal from the beginning of God’s dealings with man. Some of Fundamentalism took it to a extreme in my book, as many of the more liberal persuasion left much out.
May I caution you on the suggestion that the Pauline texts are to viewed any differently than the Jesus text. According to this very book we discuss, 2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” If any of it is inspired, all of it must be.
Further the bible declares that Jesus is the Word of God.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. ………
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
As in other matters of scriptural debate, when there appears to be a contradiction the blame must fall upon my understanding rather than the Word of God, or else I put myself in opposition the the very Word of God I propose to proclaim.
Be careful. if your hypothesis be true, and their is contradictory passages in the bible, we have nothing to stand upon but mans point of view. With this as our only option we become as the old testament descendent’s where every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 17:6
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
In closing this thought, all bible is “Jesus teaching” He is our king, our life, and the only entrance to salvation through his shed blood on our behalf. I do not see a level difference between men and women in the bible as you suggest, I see a “position” difference, as there is a position difference between pastors, deacons, teachers and listeners. All the body has different members to accomplish the same goal. Many members—one body.
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
Long answer, good question, incredible God!
I hope this helps a bit.
Don
Very interesting words Don, I was going to comment myself how fundamentalism seems to be so much different that it used to be back when the church divided in the early 1900’s. The thing that I find interesting about Piper’s comments is his statement on Biblical separation? Can someone enlighten me on that? I think this is something that the Apostle Paul stated in one of his epistles. However, this seems to contradict what Jesus was all about. I find many times that there is a contradiction between Paul and Jesus in scripture and it seems that some areas of Christianity should be called Paulianty since there seems to be a total lack of true Jesus teaching in their doctrine. I also think that often times those staunch followers of Paul’s doctrine might take him out of context. He might be dealing with something specific to a certain church and then it becomes doctrine for a denomination. I think of how the church is often times misogynistic and times proud of it, they draw from Paul often times, where a look at Jesus would reveal that he esteemed women and did not put them lower than man.
One question;
Aside from the back slapping and criticisms on both sides of this isle, are we to assume that a group from two years ago speaks for the entirety of the Fundamentalists movement, of now nearly 80 years plus? One of the notable positions of this movement was their independence from one another. The group of Fundamentalist of today bears little resemblance to that of yesteryear, and likewise the Evangelical crowd of today is barely what that name use to imply.
Lets be real, there is a coldness set in, that perhaps only a white horse and its rider can rekindle. The torch is hardly glowing any longer. The baton has been passed on and it quite possibly has been dropped prior to the finish line.
Obviously I find many of these statements disingenuous. As a previous post stated, let God be true and every man a liar.
Psalm 85:6
6Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?
Revelation 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.