In a classic example of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t,” the Left has wasted no time criticizing President Bush’s surprise stop in Iraq today enroute to a summit in Australia, the third such visit he has made in four years.
The anchors on CNN’s American Morning this morning, John Roberts and Kiran Chetry, said the president “by-passed the politically paralyzed Bahgdad,” choosing rather to land “out in the middle of nowhere well west of Baghdad in Al-Anbar province.” MSNBC says the president is “using the war zone as a backdrop to argue his case that the buildup of U.S. troops is helping stabilizing the country.” This story is just breaking so you can be certain that as the media machine heats up throughout the day today the criticisms will mount.
The Left understands this political reality: whenever a president of either party does something as daring as entering a war zone it increases his political capital. CNN and MSNBC are taking early and preemptive strikes to head off as much of that political capital as possible by suggesting that the president wasn’t bold enough to actually land in Baghdad and that in any event the whole thing is just a photo-op at tax payer expense.
So why land in Al-Anbar province and not Baghdad? Al-Anbar province may be, according to CNN “out in the middle of nowhere,” but it is anything but a safe-zone as CNN is implying. Until the troop surge began a few months back, Al-Anbar province was experiencing the highest rate of U.S. and coalition casualities and was a significant training ground for Al-Qaeda. Since the troop surge, violence is way down in Al-Anbar province and Al-Qadea has been routed. Why should the president not choose to visit the troops there to personally thank them for their service? And why should the media fault the president for doing so? Because such a high-profile visit calls attention to the truth that things are improving in Iraq, something the mainstream media does not have the will to admit.
Gentlemen
It is also “entirely possible” that God has given us a “pure” bible in spite of man’s personalities, and flaws. I’m not saying the solution is or is not in the KJV; I’m asking you, (again) do you have a perfect, inerrant, pure, Word of God, that you can hold, read, and study at your will? If so, would you share that with me?
Let me clear the air a bit. I’m not, what you define as a “fundie”, or “fundamentalist”. I’m a Biblicists! A Baptist by choice. My school master is the Holy Spirit. My Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ, and my Father is the Great I Am. His spirit, dwells within me, and bears witness, with my spirit, as described in the “Word of God”. This is how I judge the interpretations. This is where the rivers divide the camps. WHOM is it that establishes the boundaries? Sorry that this method disappoints and offends you.
Finally Colin, you say; the “vast majority of these writers”~~”seem to find ignorance to be a virtue”. My goodness sir, these are PHD’s, some with IQ’s of above the 180 mark, serving and loving the same God as you and I. Surely, they have SOMETHING to contribute! You talk about wholesale rejection! I was unaware that there were so many Christian moronic idiots in the in the business of spiritual deception. Thanks for the enlightenment! I, unlike yourself, have not arrived at the place where I can sit in judgment on their entire scholarly credentials. You also refer to the “original languages”; Colin, do you have a copy of these “original” languages? I have never seen the originals, so I must trust that God has preserved his Word, for me, as you, that which he wants us to have. Do you believe He is capable of this? Do you not find it at all interesting that most of this argument revolves around a defense of something none of us have ever seen, held, or read? It does appear, that by divine design, anything we receive, must come through the vehicle “faith”. Thus the admonition that ~~~ “without faith it is impossible to please Him”~~~
If, this is where you suggest I could be in six months, would you grant me a pass, and allow me to stay in my delusions? I do not feel up to the task of critiquing this “vast majority”.
Thanks for the engagement.
Don
Thanks for your thoughts.
Colin,
You seem to have a solid understand of the argument that non-KJV only people believe. I have heard many scholars of Greek and Hebrew say that the KJV is loaded with errors, so it is entirely possible that the humans that translated it could have done it incorrectly. It seems easy for people to not want to learn new things and when they are confronted with something that is outside our little box that conflicts then it is lies or heresy.
Don,
I just wanted to address a few of the things you stated in you response although I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate on this. You stated, ” The credibility of the blood atonement is only one of these doctrines that is at stake here ( Colossians 1:14).” The problem with this is that there is a paralell to this verse in Ephesians that every Bible version includes. You also stated, “I ‘m not willing to allow man (flesh) to decide what God has said, or meant to say, for me. That is what I, we, have the Holy Spirit for.” But couldn’t you just as well argue that man (flesh), translated the KJV and therefore isn’t valid? After all in the preface to the KJV the translators basically admit it is just a translation. Also, how can you judge whether or not an interpretation you put on a text you cannot understand is from the Spirit or the flesh? Normally, we discern if something is of the Spirit by the Word of God, but we are talking about the very Word of God itself. “To accept that we must trust scholarship to guide us is contrary to the very bible we are discussing. We are told to study (the Word) ourselves, to show ourselves approved unto God.” Don, about 6 months ago I was in your position, I was an anti-intellectual anti-reformed KJVer. How is God guided scholarship contrary to the Word of God? I mean even some of the New Testament writers used the Greek translation of the OT. We are in fact told to study to show ourselves approved, unfortunatly I find many fundementalists have this attitude that if I can’t just open it and read it, it must be satanic. There seems to be a despising of any kind of knowledge of original languages, historical context, hermeneutics amongst other tools God has given us to close the 2000 year gap between us and the original writers. I am not saying you are like this, but the vast majority of writers like Vance, Waite, Hunt, and others seems to find ignorance to be a virtue. “Sorry, but the postmodern position taken by the theological circles today, leave the stench of Romanism in my nostrils.” Well I find the attitudes and positions of many in the anti-reformed fundie camp to also have the stench of Romanism in it, but that doesn’t nessecarily prove it is some conspiracy or in and of itself prove they are wrong. “I still seek the leading and instruction from on high.” Good Praise the Lord! “In closing Colin, if there was not any evidence on either side of the KJV or Reformed position, there would be no argument. It would be clear and settled” I personally think the evidence is clear on these issues, I just think there are a lof of stubborn people 😉
Pixelmaster,
If you must know, I personally believe that anyone attempting to destroy Christian value should be delt with by the hand of God. Not the touchy feely God either, the God that delt with Ananias and Sapphira. So you see I’m neither pro-war or anti-war, I just feel that God will do what God will do. If it is through war so be it, if is through striking people dead for lying so be it, even if it is through fire and brimstone so be it.
As far as my simplistic ways, there are no “big” words in the bible, would you call the bible simplistic?
Ave Maria
Set All Afire,
Funny how you address your post to “To all you anti-war sheep” then you say you are not pro-war or anti-war. The simple way you addess anti-war folks gives a strong indication of your leanings.
Colin,
I never stated KJV only. I did say that it is the safest and that the discrepancies between the numerous versions are of too great of doctrinal weight to ignore or swallow the present day position. For me the words of the Lord are still “PURE”, Psalm 12:6. The credibility of the blood atonement is only one of these doctrines that is at stake here ( Colossians 1:14 ). The issue is very simple to me, either you have an inerrant bible or you don’t. Do you, or don’t you? I ‘m not willing to allow man (flesh) to decide what God has said, or meant to say, for me. That is what I, we, have the Holy Spirit for. To accept that we must trust scholarship to guide us is contrary to the very bible we are discussing. We are told to study (the Word) ourselves, to show ourselves approved unto God. We are also told that when the Holy Spirit shall come, “He shall lead us”. Sorry, but the postmodern position taken by the theological circles today, leave the stench of Romanism in my nostrils. I do however, read and listen to many of both sides of all issues, such as Vance. I find that this is how the Holy Spirit does lead me into all truth. I,m not anti-war nor pro-war like yourself, but neither I do not reject a man solely based upon the fact I disagree with him on some issues. As I suggested to Jeff, I thought he might be able to GLEAN something from him. My earthly father, had a similar response as yours, when I sent him a book by Vance. He asked me if I knew that he was anti-war and very negative toward our presidents Middle East policies. I responded as such; he is only a man, if you are afraid to read him, set the book down. I was stunned that a degreed man would loose his objectivity when it might contradict his predisposed beliefs. To me this is when we stop growing. I haven’t arrived at this point yet, (thank God) I still hunger for knowledge. I still seek the leading and instruction from on high.
In closing Colin, if there was not any evidence on either side of the KJV or Reformed position, there would be no argument. It would be clear and settled, however there is and thus the differences between many today.
May the Lord bless you today,
Don
Don,
Have you ever read any of James Whites Critiques on the KJV only movement? I used to be staunch KJV only, until recently… A lot of the nit picking that goes on about it is peoples misunderstandings of inspiration. Most fundementalists who are KJV seem to believe in the dictation theory of inspiration… that is that the human authors were just “faking it”, in other words when Paul opens a letter saying “Paul an Apostle of Christ Jesus” it is really God speaking pretending to be Paul. However if you accept Plenary Verbal inspiration, that God organically used the human personalities, thats not a problem. It also becomes less of a problem that different translations that say the same thing in different ways, and its not about the precise spelling or words, especially if those words don’t make sense any more. Keep in mind also that when the KJV translation came out many who used the Geneva Bible were convinced that the KJV was corrupt and translated by heretics…
By the way I would not go off trusting Vance, he is not that credible. Someone who compares the 5 points of Calvinism to how Satan and Death all have 5 letters in them to argue against Calvinism, yet somehow misses Jesus and his own last name have 5 letters also does not deserve serious attention.
To all you anti-war sheep,
I’m not “pro-war”, I’m also not “anti-war”, war is just a fact of life. They have been fighting wars in certian tribes in the Holy Land since before Jesus, (see Old Testament). We had to get rid of the Axis of Evil, granted I don’t personally believe that we should have gone so fast into Iraq, but what is done is done. As far as believing the media wether they are right or left, ALL major media is from the left, the only right news media can be found on talk radio, and if our Left wing politicians have their way, the right wing will be silenced. God grants us free will to choose what we believe, and how we act in accordance with our beliefs. You can either exit the train to the right or to the left, but your still getting of the train.
Just to clarify, I did not vote for Bush, but as an American citizen I will support our Commander in Chief, wether he leads us down the road to hell, or the road to heaven. That is why we have faith, just incase we find ourselves (as a country) going down the path to hell, at least our prayers will help guide lost sheep towards heaven.
Jeff
I can assure you he does read everything. Paul Edwards is one of the most articulate and attentive to his business in his arena. As far as the KJV debate, the can of worms opened would be immense. I have been in this camp for many years and we boast of some of the finest nut-cases of any camp. This is the beauty of being an independent Baptist, I can hang when I choose and depart on short notice. They do not care if I’m with them or not. These are my boys! You would have to go back a few years to really appreciate the diversity in the independent movement. Honestly, it’s a trip to observe. Should he open this to the blog, you can rest assured that they will come out of the woodwork. I love them and wouldn’t want it any other way.
Good chatting, have a great day.
Don
If Paul is still reading these blog’s I would love to debate this on another more appropriate heading. I don’t want to debate KJV on a blog that discusses the War.
Don, if Paul does create a blog entry for this I would love to discuss further. I am no expert but I have studied this and read several commentaries.
Jeff,
Great.
Vance has a brilliant mind and always stirs me to contemplate.
He would be a tough debater.
Your position on the KJV is one many in todays postmodern thought, will reject a man over. I mean, simply because a man believes he has a perfect, inerrant, word of God, in his hands, an actual book he can read, is grounds for some to disconnect with those that hold this position. The problem I have with the debate lies within the discrepancies between the various versions and their contradictions between themselves. It is a greater stretch for me to accept that these “all” are the word of God, rather then only one being non-corrupt. Why do we abandon logic on this issue? Either only one, or none, are inerrant. Not all, or most, or even a few, as their differences between themselves cannot allow this conclusion.
See ya on the next topic of mutual interest.
Yes Don, I know he is anti war, I have read some of his stuff on Lewrockwell.com. I like his stance on war, it seems as if he is a big KJV only person, I don’t aspouse that the KJV is the only authorized version. The KJV issue is minor as your stance on it doesn’t support the killing of many innocent lives. Our stance on this war and our voice to our legislators does make a difference.
Jeff
Vance is anti-war, I thought you might glean something from him.
Don,
I have seen his stuff briefly on the internet before, thanks for the recommendation. I don’t see supporting this war in love your enemy do good to those who persecute you etc. I have listened to Paul Edwards on the radio for sometime now and I am amazed that he can consistently defend Bush. Like I said, they fail to protect us on 911 even though we spend billions upon billions on intelligence, then instead of closing the borders, they keep them open and remove our rights through the Patriot Act and Dept of Homeland Security. Now we know they are giving us all a trackable ID card (the RealID) in May of 2008, and now there is the North American Union in the works. Finally, we are finding out the wiretapping program is not just Americans to foreigners, it is Americans to Americans. The president and his administration works under the Constitution, this man and his staff have done everything they can to get rid of and work around the Constitution. I can’t help but think of Orwell’s 1984 with all that is going on. I would think/hope that Paul Edwards would want to look this stuff up and call it out for his kids sake, we can’t sit by and let an administration do whatever they want just because they sail the flag of Christianity. Those who don’t know history are bound to repeat it and anyone who has studied 1930’s Germany knows that Hitler flew the same flag of Christianity. I am not saying Bush is Hitler like, I am saying that this method has been used before many times. Preemptive war should not be tolerated, we are in this mess because they were wrong, the right will say it was a mistake, the left will say it was on purpose, the fact is WMD’s were not found therefore the administration was wrong. Now we hear them beating the drum for Iran, as if they had a flawless record in the past and we should completely trust them. We cannot go into Iran or we might be living in a very different world in 5 years. For my kids sake, this message needs to get out, especially to the Christian community, we can can’t give our leaders free passes because they supposedly agree with our values.
BTW Don, one of the guys that I read is Chuck Baldwin. He was the first person to show me that you can be a Christian and not agree with republicans and you don’t have to go to the left either.
Jeff,
I complement your consistency. A regular contributor to many high caliber blogs is Lawrence Vance, you might find his position on war an interesting read. Google; Vance Publications and follow.
In the previous I meant to say those who failed us on 9/11 got Promoted not prompted, sorry, I hope the point got through anyway……
Paul,
I hope that someday you will see through the fog of left vs right. Until then I will continue to pray for you.
The american people are tired of Iraq, improving or not, this war should not have been faught in the first place. Now here we are 4.5 years, and trillions of dollars later with a vietnam situation. This administration has been on disaster after another and you don’t have to be on the “left” to see that. Now they are beating the drum for Iran, as if. forget all our other failures, we are “right” about this one. They failed to protect us on 9/11(did the people who failed get called out. no, they got prompted), we find out they were planning Iraq regardless of WMD’s with the downing street minutes, there are many others. Now they say trust us, we are right about Iran. This is not a left v right issues, this is an American issue. If we fight Iran ti could be all out War with Russia and China. This simple fact is that CNN and MSNBC have stopped following Fox’s lead and stopped pandering to this administration. The ratings are starting to show now that O’Reilly is losing ground to Olberman. I don’t care about left v right, I want the truth, and if I find that I am not getting the truth from a source that identifies with my values, like Fox or other “conservative” shows, I am going to call it out. I don’t want someone using my values to manipulate my attitude on something I should oppose, like preemptive War.
Love ya Paul, couldn’t dissagree with you more on this, War is an ugly thing and I have a hard time thinking that Jesus would support this, no matter what many of his “followers” might think…..
God Bless
Agree with him or disagree with him, he’s got guts!