Brad Powell, Senior Pastor of North Ridge Church in Plymouth, Michigan has written a new book about how to take your tired, old church and make it new again. Change Your Church for Good: The Art of Sacred Cow Tipping
The principles Brad articulates for team building, vision casting, and making progress toward change are positive and valuable. They aren’t necessarily biblical, however. But that isn’t to say they are necessarily unbiblical either. Except maybe for the rather bizzare story of God almost speaking audibly to Brad and telling him to transition the church to fit himself and then to relocate the church from Redford to Plymouth, “a community that will then be a perfect fit for both of you [Brad and Temple].” I haven’t been able to locate a verse for that one.
The formative years of my spiritual life were spent at the Temple Baptist Church of Detroit. In his book Brad variously characterizes the church that formed my spiritual life as “irrelevant,” “bound by tradition,” “declining,” “unhealthy,” “dying,” “Southern-cultured,” “defensive,” and possessed of “a lot of anger and conflict.”
From 1976 when I first began riding the bus to Temple, to 1989 when I left to take my first pastorate in northern Michigan, this irrelevant, bound by tradition, declining, unhealthy, dying, Southern-cultured, defensive church with a lot of pent up anger and conflict faithfully proclaimed the word of God from its pulpit and in its Sunday School classes, faithfully trained teenagers and young adults in soul-winning visitation, and remained committed to the timeless truth of God’s word in the midst of a changing culture and declining city. I owe my spiritual life to a church Brad Powell dismisses as “irrelevant.” Temple Baptist Church was certainly relevant to me. And history bears out that prior to 1991 Temple was significantly relevant to many who owe their spiritual lives to its ministry.
Brad has always dismissed the history of Temple Baptist Church as irrelevant, which is surprising since his own success at North Ridge is due in large measure to the foundation laid by others throughout Temple’s long history. For 40 years Dr. G. B. Vick labored as the faithful pastor of Temple, yet Brad can only say of this great leader and pastor that “he managed the ministry with consistent excellence and relative success,” (italics mine) even though, as Brad characterizes Dr. Vick, he was not the communicator or innovator the previous pastor was. Brad has spent his entire ministry at North Ridge building on the foundation other men laid, especially those of this mediocre leader, Dr. G. B. Vick.
There is no question that Temple was in decline and dying when Brad arrived in the early 90s. Brad and I fundamentally disagree as to why. He points to “banjos playing in the basement” to illustrate the church’s cultural irrelevance. I would point to the failure of the church’s leadership to biblically deal with sin, both among themselves and the members of the congregation. Temple died because the Spirit abandoned it, not because the culture found it irrelevant.
I would argue that Temple’s problem wasn’t its inability to connect with the culture. It had succeeded in connecting with the culture for 70 years before Brad arrived. The gospel has always been and always will be foolish to the culture, but that doesn’t make the message irrelevant. It’s not preaching, or hymns, or traditional Sunday School, or soulwinning visitation, that kill a church. It’s sin left unconfronted that kills a church. The pastor who immediately preceded Brad resigned because of a “moral failure.” God knows, plenty of others should have hit the altar that day with confessions of failures, moral and otherwise, of their own. But rather than point to spiritual decadence as the source of Temple’s decline, Brad blew past that and focused on “banjos in the basement” as the culprit. And, of course, if indeed the decline were due to “banjos playing in the basement” and stern looking “arms crossed ushers,” it would be easier to convince the people that the problem was “relevance” rather than sin.
But if the problem is spiritual, well the answer to that problem is a different one altogether. Dealing with a spiritual crisis doesn’t require abandoning the historic biblical principles that got you where you are by throwing them into the same pile with banjos playing in the basement. A spiritual crisis requires repentance and confession and a recommitment to those historic principles. But if your goal is to tip sacred cows (like banjos, organs, and arms-crossed ushers) into a Golden Calf, some things that really aren’t sacred cows (like expository, evangelistic preaching and worship music with a solid theological foundation) get labled sacred cows so as to faciliate your goal of Golden Calf forming.
Brad diagnosed cultural irrelevance as the disease that killed Temple and he presecribed a heavy dose of cultural capitulation as the remedy. It worked. And in a culture that values quantity more than quality, relevance more than spiritual depth, the fact that it worked is all that matters. For Jesus’ attitude toward quantity over quality see Matthew 7:21-23 (note the words ‘many’ and ‘knew’ and you tell me what Jesus values more: what you produce or who you know – numbers or relationship?).
Ephesians 4:11-15
“And he gave some,apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
BUT SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, MAY GROW UP INTO HIM IN ALL THINGS, WHICH IS THE HEAD, EVEN CHRIST:
Mark 12:30
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
This is the first commandment.”
Proverbs 27:7
“Faithful are the wounds of a friend;”
One final thought; the love for my Savior, and my brethren, is what has prompted this participation. As I have stated, much of this conversation is “meat”.
“This is an hard saying; who can hear it?”
My personal prayer is that we will all search, grow, and strengthen ourselves, throughout this engagement.
Always in Christ
Don Sivyer
Rick,
Paul withstood Peter to his face. Paul named Alexander the Coppersmith when he did him much evil. Paul called out Demitrius in a public letter for abandoning the faith because of his love for the world. Paul used Hymenaeus and Alexander as examples to Timothy of those who had rejected the faith and delivered them to Satan. John named Diotrephes for lording it over the church and for refusing to receive him.
It is not unloving to point out where a brother is wrong. It would be unloving not to do so. I think your unconditional support of the seeker model causes you to see hate where there is none. Nothing in these posts has been at all unloving. I challenge you to point out to all of us where the lack of love is being displayed in anything that has been said here. Certainly there is a difference of opinion.
I can assure us all that if I were writing in defense of the seeker model against those who oppose it you wouldn’t be at all concerned about a lack of love. Does Brad’s book display a lack of love when he says of his congregation: “After [the worship leader] attempted to lead the church in worship, he walked by me on the platform and said, ‘I can’t find the pulse of these people.’ I quipped back, ‘Don’t worry, they don’t have a pulse.’…We’ve had a lot of laughs over that quip through the years.” (Change Your Church for Good, 2007; p. 229) The pastor of a church *laughing* years later about the dead spiritual condition of his people?? Is that a loving, pastoral reponse to the people God called you to shepherd? Can you feel the love in that, Rick? Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Paul wished himself accursed from Christ so that Israel might be saved. Where’s the love, Rick? Laughing at the spiritual condition of people or weeping over it?
I see a ton of knowledge and arguments being thrown around. Not a ton of love. They’ll know we are Christians by our knowledge.
That’s how it goes right?
just to see it better:
1. If it’s true then it works.
2. It works.
3. Therefore, it’s true.
let me change it a bit just so we can see it better:
1. If it’s true it must work.
2. It works.
3. Therefore, it’s true.
Kurt,
First of all I have to disagree with you … this church philosophy was not Jesus’ philosophy and was not Paul’s philosophy.
We all agree that the church has a problem. But again, read Revelations chapters 2 and 3. Jesus gives clear instructions on how to revive your local church. NONE of those commandments include anything close to what Brad proposes.
I understand that you are emotionally attached to the place where you were saved. I think we all are. But you have to look deeper into your heart and ask yourself honestly: Is this philosophy a Biblical philosophy?
Let me restructure your argument:
1. All biblical philosophies that are true are philosophies that work.
2. Brad’s philosophy is a philosophy that works.
3. Therefore, Brad’s philosophy is true.
It’s a deductive logical fallacy called Affirming the consequent.
It’s like saying:
1.If it’s raining then the streets are wet.
2.The streets are wet.
3.Therefore, it’s raining.
In other words, your argument is not valid.
Please try not to get this whole thing personal 🙂 We are all together in this trying to follow our Master.
God bless you my brother.
Kurt,
What scares me is your thought that “NorthRidge worked for me.” That sounds very man centered and very self-centered and not the least gospel-centered or Christ-centered.
You will have difficulty justifying your assertion that NorthRidge’s philosophy is the same as Paul’s (I assume you mean The Apostle). A cursory reading of 1 Corinthians 2 puts to flight this whole notion of relevance to the culture. If I remember correctly, Paul (the Apostle) wrote 1 Corinthians 2. Beyond that, Paul warned the Colossians to BEWARE of being taken captive by PHILOSOPHY, rather than being taken captive by Christ (Colossians 2:8). They were in danger of not holding fast to the Head – Christ. They were in danger of being influenced more by worldly wisdom than by the foolishness of the cross – all in the name of “reaching people.”
And if NorthRidge’s philosophy is to do whatever it takes to win people, Jesus doesn’t serve as a very good example either. Many believed on His name when they saw the miracles that He did, but Jesus would not commit Himself to them (John 2:23-25). In John 6 Jesus preached a sermon so hard to take *many* of His disciples went back and walked with him no more (John 6:66). Jesus may have drawn thousands, but the weekend of his crucifixion 11 were present, and 50 days later there were only 120 present. I suppose even Jesus needed Change Your Church for Good.
This notion that a philosophy *works* because people respond is simply worldly wisdom. It is corporate boardroom strategy applied to the church and has NO BASIS in the Word of God.
Kurt
Your response is evidence of my point.
Sorry you miss it.
I still wish you well and God’s blessings on your service for Him.
Don,
Would you please elaborate on what you suggest has been the “terrible cost to the lives and memories of several thousand children of God”? Was there some genocide that I am not aware of?
Benjamin,
I believe I answered on what grounds I say IT WORKS…
“I am defending a philosophy of ministry. WHY? Because it WORKS. Because it was Paul’s philosophy….because it was Jesus philosophy. I am a product of such churches, of such a God.”
If you go back to my very first post I make it clear that NorthRidge worked for me…and much like the blind man receiving his sight, that is something that even the greatest argument in here will not change.
I have been up most of last evening
searching and still without success;… Please, what is a…. “rats rip”?… Is it close to the tail? Any help will be appreciated.
Dave
Thanks for the insight.
My comments revolve around the book, that does indeed subjugate the ministry of the TBC as that of irrelevance and at a minimum, suggests the error of their ways. I never stated that I actually enjoyed the banjos, but neither did I take offense to them. They were simply part of the background, of many a dedicated Christian, albeit more simple in training than most who visit this blog..The issues is not and never has been the banjos in the basement. .It is all about people!… The part I still find amazing is that no one has attempted to engage whether or not the insertion of “what if God were one of us” as a consideration for “worship” of the “Most High” was appropriate for the pretext to the presentation of the gospel. My critique was of the this song and of the book that relegates the “southern” element of our society to a lesser value than others. I was born and bred in Detroit. I have no family bias, other than the family at Temple that exposed me to my Savior. I will add this personal note; I was around when the decline started at the TBC. The problem arose its ugly head with the resignation of Dr. Henderson. The church had already within its ranks those who deemed it better to lean to a more “liberal” (if you will) approach to the ministry. If it was warranted or not, I will leave that to others to decide. The trend had started at the leadership level and this was their opportunity to move to make the necessary change. With the aid of AV the next pastor was called, to whom Paul refers. This man attempted gently to steer the TBC into different waters. His own failure thwarted his efforts. I might add here, that the members who sacrificed many years for this ministry were against this particular style of change, not change in its self. Then came Bradley Powell. He was called by a deacon board that knew what direction of ministry bro Powell would bring. They also knew this would likely decimate the current membership at the TBC. It did. The average attendance when AV was at the helm was around 4,500 and plummeted to 1200 at one time. Brad only finished the job that he was invited to do. Relevant or not, many were wounded beyond repair.
“A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.”…Proverbs 18:19
God’s wisdom is always better than ours!
The rest is history. After the dust settled, NR was born. My only comment here is; what a terrible cost to the lives and memories of several thousand children of God… The pain still lingers today, as is evident. I wonder if it would have been wiser to start from scratch rather than decimate and rebuild.
My prayer is this may shed a ray of light on a dark story.
Always in Christ,
Don Sivyer
@Don:
thank you for the kind words.
@Kurt:
First of all let me make a confession to you: I visit Willow Creek Community Church once in a while (about 10 times a year). I have close friends that go there. They have the same philosophy as Brad presents in his book. As a young person I understand also what you mean by “relevant”. However, on what base do you conclude that “it works”? Numbers? Budget? All the smiley faces? Or are you saying it works because people are transformed? Divorce rate has gone way down in the congregation? People just love to read God’s word? People have a deep understanding of God? People refuse to compromise in their personal lives? Have people stopped smoking behind the church? Is there a revival? How many of the church will be ready to die if a persecution would start today?
Even if it works … it does not mean it is true. You can’t have your church philosophy based on an utilitarian approach.
Please understand I’m not defending the banjo here 🙂 God knows I love playing my electric guitar. What I am defending is what Paul has mentioned: “expository, evangelistic preaching and worship music with a solid theological foundation”. I can’t remember how many times I went and got a message a la Joel Olsteen, very relevant but with no substance.
You are saying they(those who have a different church philosophy) “claim that Jesus is all the relevance a church needs”. And you disagree with that? Is not this after all Jesus’ Church? Is not Jesus relevant in Himself? Are not His words good enough? Why do we feel like we need to bribe the world so that they can accept God’s word and salvation?
The foundation of the church is Jesus. That’s why our faith is based on His word:
Romans 10:17 (English Standard Version): “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ”
It is Christ’s word that makes the church what it should be. Why is is that many people who have not stepped in a church and have read God’s word were saved? Based on Brad’s assumption, that is something that shouldn’t happen, because after all the Bible in itself is not relevant; it needs our relevant help … poor God’s word.
@Paul:
Did you think about writing a book similar (on the topic) as Brad did?
@Dave:
please read more carefully … Paul never said that Brad or his church are “unbiblical” …
you are right about the statement of faith … my guess is the same, we are all very similar. I have no doubt that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
again … we are not debating here the “megachurch” … there are plenty of small churches that have adopted this new church philosophy. And it is important to realize that the majority of Christians is not in those megachurches, but rather in congregations that average about 100 members.
As for “this section”, I’d say that the topic at hand is extremely important. Paul and Brad have the same objective: a Christlike church full of life and God’s Spirit. They just present 2 different approaches. And as I learned in my LOGIC 101 course, based on the law of non contradiction they can’t be both true.
To conclude: I think we should all read again Revelation 2 and 3. I don’t see there Jesus complaining to a church that it is culturally irrelevant.
What is see is :”repent” , “Be faithful unto death” , “repent”, “unless they repent”, “Keep it, and repent”, “Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.”, “Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent”.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'”
When was the last time you heard a sermon on repentance?
God bless you all.
Wow! This is one of the most vitriolic comment sections I have seen on a Christian site in a long time. I know Kurt, follow his blog and found this section. Make no mistake about it, we as followers of Christ must discern those who are in error. My opinion is that many commenters here draw a very narrow view of those who are faithful. I find it hard to draw hard lines of fellowship over ministry philosophy. To brand a man or church as “unbiblical” is a tremendously serious charge. I have a feeling that everyone posting here would sign a very similar statement of faith. Isn’t the kingdom big enough for different styles of churches?
The “mega-church” trend has peaked, and God is working in new ways already. The gospel is the gospel, why attack to who are preaching Christ? At the end of the day it isn’t about banjos, buildings or philosophy. Are we preaching Christ? Temple preached Christ, right? Northridge preaches Christ, right? Are we not called to rebuke in all gentleness? (though healthy intelligent debate is God honoring) This section clearly does not embody all that Christ wants us to be.
Your brother–Dave
P.S.–Don, I really loved your list of names. However, Jehovah is not the name of the Lord. The transliteration from Hebrew is YHWH/YHVH. Jehovah came from a combination of the consonants and the vowels for Adonai which were added later to avoid accidental pronunciation. I think you would be fascinated by further research! http://www.davetilma.com
What is a rats rip?
Kurt
Your comments have provoked me to ask several questions… Those children of the bus ministry, or the older southern folk (you know, the out of touch ones)… are their souls relevant?…. Has there been as much “hard work” to reach them also?…. Are these not also “far from God”, and in need of a Savior?…. Do these souls carry the same value as those you are referring to?….I do not know, as I am not a member of NR, but are those I point out, on the “front and center” of your outreach program also?… I hope so…This I do know; …when I was a member of the TBC I personally witnessed precious souls saved every Sunday. We saw them at the “old fashioned altar”.. weeping,.. praying,.. and receiving Christ as their Savior. We watched them grow in grace and witnessed their fruits remain…These were seeds sown on the fertile ground. It was not unusual to see 50 souls or more respond to the altar call… Only God knows how many were true conversions, but to minimize this former great Church to a position of irrelevance feels as much an attack to some of us as perhaps what you feel about the NR ministry… The style you refer to as irrelevant, may be, to those of you at NR, but to many of us, outside of NR, it is not!!… Why must this book we discuss attack us, our memories, our former Pastors… We loved them every bit as much as you do yours… Is our love and are our memories irrelevant to your movement?.. Once again, I hope not… How about some consistency in this arena.
I wonder when you read this book, did you honestly read it to find ways to Change Your Church for the Good? Or for ammunition lash out at the one whom hurt you?
Show me one thing in the post, Kurt, where I have attacked Brad. The mere fact that he is mentioned by name 17 times is not indicative of an attack. I have pointed out what Brad has said, and I have countered what he has said. To suggest that because I hold a different view from Brad and therefore I am attacking him by pointing it out is to elevate Brad to infallibility. Which is perfectly in keeping with a personality cult.
When I want to read about how to honestly lead the church of Jesus Christ I refer to Paul, and Peter, and James, and Jesus, not Brad. Brad’s book is filled with management strategies suitable for any corporate boardroom in America. I’m not interested in changing the church in that way. The whole title of Brad’s book is problematic – especially this notion that the church is *yours*. The church is Christ’s!
Benjamin,
Dr Phil Award? I will take that as a compliment coming from you. He has helped a lot of people, and like Brad is busy doing what God has designed him for.
Im rather confused though when you say I have made clear argument, if you read from the beginning I have made it quite clear…and only recently after reflection posted as Dr. Phil might have. In the end you’re absolutely right…I am defending a philosophy of ministry. WHY? Because it WORKS. Because it was Paul’s philosophy….because it was Jesus philosophy. I am a product of such churches, of such a God. Having attended those on the other side (those who don’t give a rip about being relevant and claim that Jesus is all the relevance a church needs)…seeing them caught up in religious debate, more excited about being right than winning a lost soul to Jesus. I heard of one such church that actually split over what color siding they were going to put on the church. I do become sensitive when someone seeks to write a book to help other pastors Change Their Church for the Good and they get attacked. Someone who I’ve seen front and center sacrifice so much and work so hard to reach those far from God. And quit retreating Paul, you have absolutely attacked Brad…and your comments throughout have been personally cutting him…not his philosophy. In your original post you mention him by name 17 times…if it was just about the philosophy why mention him so much? Simple state the philosophy and then begin the discussion.
I would still love to hear an answer to my question in the last post: I wonder when you read this book, did you honestly read it to find ways to Change Your Church for the Good? Or for ammunition lash out at the one whom hurt you?
Kristi
Let me encourage you, not to leave the blog. By your own admission you have gained a fresh perspective from it. How better to hone in on your beliefs, than to be challenged?.. Your opinion counts.. We need you.. This issue is greater than Brad or Paul or myself. I can remember when I use to regard Dr Vick as close to the fourth member of the Trinity. It is good for us to love and respect our pastor.. The entry’s on this blog are.. “meat”.. and sometimes hard to digest… They are also hard to hear. This is where growth comes from. I would prefer that you Do disagree with some, it creates an atmosphere of challenge. We all need this.
Thanks for your input. Hopefully you will reconsider and add to all of our learning processes.
My brother Ben,
Once again, I’m impressed. If you are indeed, almost half my age, I would say of you as Paul said of Timothy, You are wise beyond your years.
After digesting all of this bantering, I submit this thought to all;
Can it be that our God has become our “buddy” in some circles? The great.. “I AM,.. LORD of Hosts,.. creator of all,..”Our Father which art in heaven”,..
Adonai-Jehovah
The Lord our Sovereign
El-Elyon
The Lord Most High
El-Olam
The Everlasting God
El-Shaddai
The God Who is Sufficient
Jehovah-Elohim
The Eternal Creator
Jehovah-Jireh
The Lord our Provider
Jehovah-Nissi
The Lord our Banner
Jehovah-Ropheka
The Lord our Healer
Jehovah-Shalom
The Lord our Peace
Jehovah-Tsidkenu
The Lord our Righteous
Jehovah-Mekaddishkem
The Lord our Sanctifier
Jehovah-Sabaoth
The Lord of Hosts
Jehovah-Shammah
The Lord is Present
Jehovah-Rohi
The Lord our Shepherd
Jehovah-Hoseenu
The Lord our Maker
Jehovah-Eloheenu
The Lord our God
“I AM THAT I AM”
He is much more than “one of us”!!
He is LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS!!!!
It is about time we treat Him as such!!!
Kurt
I think you deserve “The Dr. Phil Award”. You seem to know what people think and you’re extracting that from words that have a complete different meaning.
It seems to me that you feel attacked personally by this post for one simple reason: you have the same church philosophy as Brad does.
I see that you are pursuing a Masters of Divinity. This issue then, should be very important to you. But please when you make an argument, make a logical argument. It is hard to take you seriously when you commit a non sequitur kind of argument.
In other words, it is really irrelevant if Paul does or doesn’t have personal issues with Brad (he already told you that he doesn’t … so you must have some inside knowledge that he or we don’t).
Remember, it really makes no difference from whom the critique comes as long as it is accurate. If it’s not, tell him why.
Be wise my brother ~
I read what Kurt writes and I feel like he is not only agreeing with Brad but sincerely listening to you Paul. And then I read what you write Paul and I feel like you arent listening to what he is saying or being open to hear him. You have “lashed out” and then you act like you havent. You have agreed with in your writing and the writings of other’s harsh comments and then want to say you arent “lashing out” or whatever. You are doing that. And if you think that Brad is doing that and dont like it….why are you doing it yourself? No one is trying to say that Brad has it right 100%…all churches are not perfect…but Brad is following what he believes is God’s call on his life. It is not the “big” or the “money” he is going for…it really is life change. I am sure you are striving for that in your church. That is the point. I just feel like you arent even listening to Kurt’s comments and evaluating yourself or your thoughts…you and most of the other commenters are using it as fuel to turn it around and have more and new arguments. I dont get that.
I truly do pray for all of us and this has opened my eyes in new ways to remember to do that more. We all have a lot to learn from each other. Because we sure want to make sure that God is honored in all we speak or write in blogs.
Thanks for the reading. I will not be heading out here anymore…Praying God’s best for all of you. Sincerely I am.
Remarkable!
Kurt,
I appreciate your genuine concern, but the issue isn’t me! Brad didn’t do anything to me. Brad has not hurt me or wounded me or offended me.
I’ll say it again: I have been dealing in these posts with a philosophy that says God needs our help to make the sinner attracted to the gospel. That is my ONLY issue.
I have not “lashed out” at Brad. I have offered cogent arguments for a biblical view of church growth as opposed to the seeker model. Why is it that if someone like me disagrees with someone like Brad, I’m “lashing out”? But if Brad disagrees with how I do church and says things like “My goal is to make churches like your obsolete,” Brad is being progressive and kind?
Paul,
Last night as I was reflecting on this whole “conversation” and what stood out to me was your comment about talking with Brad yourself, and how you were so offended that I might in your words; “judge the intent of your heart.”
Paul I think that you have been wounded…hurt by people like Brad and others personally as you have walked the road of ministry. And its natural when one is wounded to lash out. First on the ones whom you deem responsible for your wounding and then secondly to the organization or group of people they are leading/a part of. The problem however is that attacking a MEGA church will never heal MEGA wounds. You need trusted friends and mentors…and ultimately God to work on your inner life, removing the false self and continuing to work your salvation. I pray this happens…so you will be changed, and then your church will have the opportunity to change as well.
I wonder when you read this book, did you honestly read it to find ways to Change Your Church for the Good? Or for ammunition lash out at the one whom hurt you?
The main issue here is Biblical principals must be adhered to,to conform to a new testament church. The issue is not whether or not a particular church’s methodology is in style, but does it fall in line with the revealed format given by God. These great underpinnings are required for a New Testament church to fulfill the biblical definition of a “Local Church”.
First, The holiness of God.
We are told in Leviticus 19:2
“Ye shall be Holy; for I the LORD your God am holy” and before you dismiss this as Old Testament, it is repeated in I Peter 1:16. then in Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, HOLY, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service”.
Now I ask this question; How does the performance of a musical special that blasphemes God in its lyrics qualify as holy? IE;” What if God were one of us”. Are these lyrics holy? Is your God a “slob”?
Should the term “slob” even be used in the same context as God? This is only one example, are there others?
Secondly, we are told to be separate from the world,(its ways, behaviors, philosophy’s, and play grounds)…Question # 2, How do we propose to be separate from the world if, in the name becoming “all things to all people, that we may reach…” we violate the very message we are proclaiming, by mimicking the world we are instructed to withdraw from?
What a contradiction!
I Peter 2:9 “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a HOLY nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness to his marvelous light!
You tell us how you can justify this and we might better understand. For now I will expect to be “peculiar” for my LORD.
Paul,
I admire your courage.
I found this at North Ridge Church web site: I think it is relevant 🙂
“What are our services like?
Our Weekend Services use relevant music, creative arts and technology to communicate and inspire. Feel free to join in or sit back and enjoy. We want you to feel comfortable. You can even have a delicious cup of coffee while listening to a relevant message from our Senior Pastor, Brad Powell or one of our great teaching pastors in the main auditorium. Dress is casual so come as you are. Jeans are just fine.”
Now compare that to Calvary Baptist Church of Waterford:
“The people who are Calvary Baptist Church desire to “bring about the obedience of faith among all nations for the sake of Christ’s name” (Romans 1:5). We seek to do this by developing real and genuine relationships with other believers and seeking those who as yet do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ and introducing them to Him. The focus of our ministry is WORSHIP and the means of our worship is the teaching of God’s word through expositional preaching and praising God through the singing of psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.”
I see 2 big differences in church philosophies:
1. This obsession with relevance.
2. This obsession with attracting people into our local gatherings (“seeker-sensitive”).
I think in the end the root of the both is one: the lack of trust in God’s message. It is almost like saying that the gospel needs a little touch to become “relevant”.
One meaning for the word relevant is very revealing: “the ability (as of an information retrieval system) to retrieve material that satisfies the needs of the user”.
Instead of being a God-centered church, it becomes a Man-centered church. Instead of asking how else should we please God, we are asking how else should we please the “seeker”.
Unless the church regains their trust in God and His message, it will be hard to change its philosophy.
A.W. Tozer once said that there are churches that work so well as an organization that if the Spirit would leave, no one would notice.
Precisely Michael. We don’t measure the church by what it WAS (historically) but by the character and calling given it by the One who loved it and gave Himself for it. I don’t give a rats rip that NorthRidge isn’t anything at all like the Temple Baptist it once was and that I grew up in. What I care about is that NorthRidge’s character and calling isn’t shaped by the historic and timeless truth of Scripture, but rather by the whims and fancies of a consumer/market driven philosophy. But you get that, I think.
Angela
I’m thankful your cynicism and am glad it’s leaking out of the basement.
Paul
All of this talk of relevance I think should be calibrated around Jesus. Are we relevant to him? Do we see the whole of the gospel as relevant to the whole of our life? Those starting points will probably go a long way in alleviating the need to manufacture relevance toward others. We, in my opinion, live in no greater time to stand with the unique message of the gospel in our culture, since the gospel never changes. What then is the problem? I really think it’s when we confuse both religion and liberalism with the gospel.
Anyway—
Kurt,
We have been dealing on this blog with philosophy – not Brad’s motives, intents, or character. Neither Glenn nor I have judged BRAD – we have used biblical DISCERNMENT to make the point that marketing the church is UNBIBLICAL.
You, however, have impugned my motives for my post by stating that ENVY is what motivates me rather than biblical principle.
The old saying goes, if you can’t win the argument with reason, attack the character of your opponent.
Paul,
If you notice my comment was to Glenn, and yes you can assume I was addressing you. Funny how you call me on such judgment and freely let Glenn say such things of Brad. In the end I doubt Brad’s eyes will ever glance at this blog…he is far to busy doing what God has called him to do and CLEARLY he is doing something right.
Kurt,
To suggest that I am envious of NorthRidge and Brad Powell is to judge the intent of my heart – which is God’s exclusive domain.
You said:
>>”we would do best to first seek to connect with the attenders of them…”
I have connected with attenders at NorthRidge – and even members! I said this before: I have a long history with NorthRidge. I have friends (well, at least I think they are still friends) who are memebers there; I have FAMILY who are members there.
You said:
>>talk to the pastor we seek to criticize ourselves or at least people that work closely with him/her.
I have. His response was that his goal was to make small churches like mine obsolete.
You said:
>>attend there for more than just one week and actually see why thousands of people are going to that church and not yours.
Now we’re getting to the major point of difference between your view of a successful church and the Bible’s view of a successful church. The fact that “thousands attend” is meaningless, unless you are market and consumer driven. Thousands were drawn to Jesus – and he REJECTED them (John 2:23-25).
Maybe you should get to know ME, Kurt, before you go attempting to discern the thoughts and intents of my heart.
Kristi,
Thank you so much for your prayers, as I’m sure you have followed through with your own advice and bowed your head for me. I actually think we are articulating the same sentiment in a different manner. I want so much for us all to heed your words and “act like we are all on the same team.” That is exactly why my post focused on alienation of church members and the emotional and community dismissal of children of God who are looked at as over the hill, out of style, or the like. I composed my comment not to defend the “style” of church that was being conducted at Temple, but to point out the absurdity of making your whole agenda about being contemporary and relevant at the expense of insulting and ostracising members of your “team.”
I make these remarks comfortably, as I feel this is the appropriate forum to raise such concerns. Replying with opinion to a post directly addressing this topic is not, in my opinion, the public tear-down that you imply. I find nothing wrong with a “back and forth” if its intent is non-malicious and works to achieve understanding. Sometimes this understanding needs to be found on BOTH sides, which is why healthy criticism can be misconstrued as insulting or mean spirited. Perhaps my sarcastic list made you annoyed, but I doubt it made you stumble. I honestly do not harbor personal anger about this subject, as I am happy with my church home and realize that church “style” is inconsequential (I believe I stated that in the closing of my last post.) In an imaginary scenario where I meet Pastor Powell for lunch, I would not have cross words for him or meet him in ill will. I would hope that we would pray for the WHOLE of The Church. Not just his, and not just the kind that subscribes to his way of thinking.
Don’t worry, Kristi, I don’t attend NR where my sinful cynicism may be let loose into the sanctuary. They keep me in a basement downriver.
Love (sincerely),
angela
Angela
Perhaps you ARE missing something, the courage of your convictions. Why so timid?… Go ahead, speak your mind… Do not be afraid to state you position.
An old pastor of mine was known to use the phrase,… “He’s not worth shooting”… Now girl, you got spunk. Whether or not any one agrees with you, you are indeed worth shooting, I like a person with guts.
Glenn,
You might be right when you say; “I suspect Brad Powell will dismiss this (and all) criticism as born of envy, but I think you nailed it, Paul.” Personally I have thought that as I have read these comments. They smell of envy. It is sad to me when the BIG churches are attacked simply for being BIG. We live in a world where the minority, the small is lifted HIGH and proclaimed somehow better simply because it is SMALL. Where the white man is to be untrusted and no longer seen as an authority in this world. In all of our assumptions with these BIG congregations, we would do best to first seek to connect with the attenders of them,(like myself) talk to the pastor we seek to criticize ourselves or at least people that work closely with him/her…or heck attend there for more than just one week and actually see why thousands of people are going to that church and not yours. (Remember Jesus drew thousands didn’t He?)
Being BIG is not a sin, however praying for God to become BIG and yet not being willing to make the changes necessary to become BIG is. Growth in any area never happens if you aren’t willing to work hard. (Note: If you still use Banjo’s you fall into this category)
Paul
Bravo!!
And all the people said…Amen. Heads bowed, eyes closed, no one looking around, how many of you….. etc.
Kristi,
Is not Brad Powell defending HIS way of doing church in his book and through his “Change Your Church” conferences? Do you give Brad the freedom to “tear down a church and its Pastor” by allowing his criticism of Temple Baptist Church and its former pastor(s) to go unchallenged (some of us were present at the old Temple and remember it quite differently than Brad – are we not allowed to set the record straight or does Brad get the final word?). Brad wrote his criticisms in a book. Is that somehow different from “posting them online”? Funny, PRIDE is exactly what comes to my mind, too. Charging people hundreds of dollars a pop to have them sit and listen to YOUR WAY of doing church seems genuinely prideful to me.
Let us all pray for Angela. She is definitely hurting and needs us to focus less on our church “preferences” and more on lifting one another up in prayer. (No church is perfect Angela…and if you have seen the Waterfall…then you must still be going to NorthRidge, huh? If so…why? And are you spreading this venum around to people? Yikes!) Lets all be more about living a life that honors Christ and helps people get saved. This kind of conversation back and forth shows me why the world is going crazy while Christians defend “their way of doing church.” A conversation between Christians who have different opinions and tastes is one thing….seemingly tearing down a church and its Pastor…is not Glorifying to God and is sin. And if you are willing to post it online then I know you have had these kind of tear down sessions with other people and it serves no purpose. Lets just hope that a non-believer wasnt around and heard the conversation and chose to never go to any “style” of church. Why would they want to? When I hear people tear other CHRISTIAN churches down..it depresses my spirit and I cant imagine that God is happy either. We are called to love God and love people and tell them the story of God’s love for them. The one word that pops up in my head is Pride. Let us all humble ourselves, go to whatever translation of the Bible we read and get on our faces before the Lord. And lets remember MOST OF ALL….we are supposed to be on the same team. Lets act like it.
Welcome aboard Glen!
You have now joined the elite ranks of those of us who intend to solve these issues, that have otherwise been unresolved since 70 AD, or there abouts.
Proverbs 11:14 “Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counsellors (archaic KJV spelling) there is safety”
I suspect Brad Powell will dismiss this (and all) criticism as born of envy, but I think you nailed it, Paul.
Is the Gospel “the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes” (Romans 1:16) or is it merely one more idea in a marketplace of ideas and requires creative packaging in order to attract a wide audience?
I keep coming back to 1 Cor. 1:17. Efforts at embellishment amount to the trivialization of the cross.
Regards!
Kurt
Sorry for the offense, none was intended. My point is this; we may not be able to appreciate how and when the Lord has, and is, working in our life in this present time, but I suspect from the vantage point of heaven, your grandmother’s influence will be part of the process. She did, after all, take you to church. That is much more opportunity than most children are given. She did take you to Bible teaching church. Whether or not it was a social gathering is not for me to judge. I would add this, it beats the other options she could have influenced you with. What better place to gather for social fulfillment, than a Bible teaching church. I was taken to church all of my youth, by my parents and grandparents. We attended the Redford Presbyterian Church, in Redford, Mi. I cannot ever recall understanding “what must I do to be saved” from those exposures, but I suspect that God was working on me. I later met a family who invited me to the Temple, and through God’s glorious grace I heard, and received, and was changed, a new creature in Christ. As those old timey southern folk would say, I was “borned again” You know what, they were right! Soon after that my brother, my sister, my father, and even my 75 year old grandparents got “borned again”! My soul sits here rejoicing with tears in my eyes as I key in this response. “O the wonder of it all”…. “and can it be, that I should gain”!!!!
“There will never be a sweeter story, story of the Savior’s love divine, love that brought it from realms of glory, just to save a sinful soul like mine”.
You see, whatever you and I got, was still from God. Mine started from a dead Presbyterian Church, and yours from a backwoods Baptist Church….James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turnings”,…And yes, He used my parents, grandparents, and your grandmother, Brad and the North Ridge Church to accomplish a work in both of us respectively.
Your statement about the Unity and the Mormon example, I take great issue with.
Finally, You appear to lump Paul and myself together. We are friends from way back, and share a rich heritage that many have not the privilege to have had. However, Paul is a Calvinist, I am not. I believe that the atonement is full, unlimited, to whosoever will my come, and that the offer is to all mankind. I also believe that a child of God is incapable to persevere to the end, if left up to him, and that we are preserved, kept, protected, by the Holy Spirit, until the day of redemption. I further believe that man is totally depraved but still possess the God given ability to decide for himself, to receive the payment for his sins, to harden not his heart, and take full advantage of the atonement and “apply” it, by simply asking for forgiveness from God, believing that Christ died in his stead, shed His blood to wash away our sin, and trusting in none else but Him, for a Pardon, and at that point receives placement in the body of Christ and has put in reserve, a new body for him, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Romans 8:23
With that being said, Paul is my brother in Christ, and my friend.
We share the same alarm as to what is happening all over Christendom today. We will be sitting at the same marriage supper table in heaven, serving the same Lord of Lords, both, casting crowns at His feet,( he, I presume, will have a great deal more than myself to cast) and will together stand with the angelic host and sing Holy, Holy, Holy! Perhaps even “when we all get to heaven”. I say this only to illustrate that the differences between us will not divide us in our Lord’s eyes, nor from you or Brad or any other truly blood bought child of God, but we would be less than honest if we were to conceal that which needs to be in open.
My prayer is that your efforts in His service will be blessed by the one with whom we have to do.
Let us all go forth and “fight the good fight of faith”
In Christ,
Don Sivyer
I have not read Mr. Powell’s book, but already think it should be renamed. I propose
White Flight: How to Alienate Your
Founding Congregation Members with Trendy Culture, All While Counting Your Money.
Included within it’s pages, I’m sure, is a list of the top ten ways to “tip the sacred cow.” The list would probably read something like this:
1. In the beginning, act like you use the Bible in your sermons so that everyone will vote you in.
2. Fire existing church staff. That quiet secretary might be southern, and you wouldn’t want her representing your new super-cool church with that drawl. Affluent individuals might not want to visit
3. Get the hell out of any area with a weak tax base. People in these areas don’t tithe, so they are of no use to you. (If you have trouble with this step, refer to #4.)
4. Tell your congregation that they are outgrowing your building. If this is obviously not true, don’t worry about it. People who agree with the move will not care that you are lying, African American parishioners will stop attending (which is what you want), and everyone left will be southerners who are too stupid to figure out your deception.
5.Cut all programs that are aimed at children. This demographic doesn’t tithe either. (See #3. )
6. Exercise your authority at any time for any reason. You are in charge, and your congregation should be reminded of this. For example, if you are having a really hard time convincing everyone of #4, just rope off the balcony so that no one can sit there. This will make the auditorium look more full, and at the same time exercise your authority as being the head of your church. After all, you can make people sit wherever you want to. It’s your show to run.
7. If someone you do not know approaches you after church and says they want to talk to you, act like you are in a very big hurry. This will make you seem very important and will also allow you to avoid a messy situation like helping, crying with, or praying for someone. As you stride by them, put a smile on your face and just make typing motions with your fingers while whispering “e-mail me.”
8. If you have a very respected elder in your congregation who has a business card that reads “have Bible, will preach…have band, will play,” he must be rooted out and taken down a peg, immediately. Do not underestimate him. Though he is obviously stupid because he plays a banjo and loves his Sunday school class, he still wields power with all of those other old southern people. Suggested actions include removing all hymns from service so that these types of people feel alienated, allow them to hold class bi-weekly and hope they forget to keep coming, and finally, provoke a verbal confrontation with their ringleader in the hallway before service. This will show everyone again that you are in charge, that banjos will not be tolerated, and that they obviously harbor a lot of “anger and conflict.”
9. If your church has any existing performance traditions, they might be able to stay. Here is the test: charge money for seats. If it sells tickets, book it for eight more nights. If it doesn’t, cancel it. This will work double time to save money, because you can dismantle that ugly wooden tree set and use it to board up the windows of the gym. (Remember, you don’t need this building anymore, because there are no kids around.)
10. If you ever begin to question your own motives or feel that you lack direction in your “cow tipping,” take a long break to regroup and count your money.
Though I am afraid my book projections will come off as bitter, I assure you that I am only amused. Amused that the deep hurt of so many people can be written about with the word “good” in the title, and be hawked on amazon.com for eleven bucks a pop.
I thank God that I was too young to know and understand more than I did about Powell’s revolution while it unfolded, and continue to thank him for wise teachers who have allowed me to understand that I “go to church” at my school, in my home and around my community.
(Then again, all of those places don’t have seat numbers or giant plaster water falls, so maybe I’m missing something.)
Paul, I believe that the “biblical nature of the church as distinct from the culture, expository preaching, and solid worship music that is theologically sound” is still true of NorthRidge…with the exception of expository teaching which I cant find any biblical basis to support that it is the only way to teach Gods Word. Personally I see the biblical nature of the church is one that influences and has an impact on culture…doesn’t separate itself from it. The Acts 2 church had thousands responding in a Pagan culture with many Gods…how would that have happened if Paul didn’t speak their language? Dress and act to some degree like they did? What do you make of Paul spending time rationalizing with the Philosophers? Doesn’t that seem foolish if Paul would have thought like you that the church was supposed to be “strange” and “peculiar.”? The verses you are referring to simply say that the world will think that of the church, its not a command for us to strive to be like that. The extreme example of what you are asserting of a separate from culture church would be our Amish brothers and sisters. How effective have they been at fulfilling the Great Commission? How many people have you met came to Christ through an Amish Conference? But while they arent very good at Evangelism, they are definitely good at accomplishing your idea of “biblical nature of the church as distinct from the culture”…heck they probably have some really good expository teachers too. I believe such groups will receive the same judgment Christ gave the Pharisees whose zeal for keeping Gods law overshadowed their love for people and created a system of condemnation and guilt which no one wanted to be a part of. Christ came to give LIFE, to change the written code…is it wrong to let people in on that truth? In a way that is “comfortable” and “engaging?” I don’t think so…in fact I think that is one of the chief roles of the modern church.
Don,
God is absolutely the ultimate source of my salvation and life change…however, He chooses to use the local church as the way in which He brings about that change. To say its all God and only giving him the credit is ridiculous and un-biblical. To be sure some are spoken to by God through Unity Churches, heck even Mormon gatherings…but that is not to say it is the BEST way or maximizing the gifts that God has given to us. To me that is what this whole debate boils down too…how the church can become more effective at doing what God intended for it to do. I think churches like Willow Creek and NorthRidge are VERY effective at reaching boomers who have become untrusting of the local church and package the truth of God in a way that is no-less inspired and powerful than at your church.
My grandmother is a dear lady and I love her to death…however aside from her taking me to church, she had little impact on my spiritual development. She rarely reads her bible and I honestly cannot remember the last time she applied Gods Word to something that was happening in her life. The church for her is little more than a social gathering that strokes her need to be loved and occasionally teaches her something that she already knew from past teaching.
I leave you both with the words of Paul…
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all peoplei so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
(1 Cor 9:19-23 TNIV)
Its been a good conversation, however I have said my peace and will be moving on. If you would like to chat more feel free to email me. Thanks.
Kurt
I just read a publication on the history of the Baptist. I’m with you,… I would not have much to do with them either… Just wondering however, where might you have been today without the influence of a godly grandmother attending an out of touch church.
By the way, what you are today, (and praise the Lord you are “in Christ”) is due to the.. “Most High God”.. of your godly grandmother and others, not because of Brad, or any church, or any man, whether relevant or not.
To God be the glory, great things He hath done!… “Let God be true, but every man a liar”
Irrelevance. What a irrelevant term.
To a Biblicists, the only thing relevant is the Word of God, and his relationship to it.
II Timothy 3:16
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
Doctrine = What is right!
Reproof = What is wrong!
Correction = How to get right!
Instruction = How to stay right!
Interesting; “3:16”
Now this is Relevant!
Is the Savior relevant anymore?
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein” Mark 15:15
Could the church,(if it were possible), be putting constraints on the simplicity of the Gospel?
Has anyone experienced an old fashioned alter call lately?
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” John 3:16
“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” I John 5:20
The fist question of real relevance is: Do you have the Son?
Is this relevant anymore?
Are we relevant anymore?
I know, is this post relevant?
You decide.
Thanks for your comments Kurt. I think you miss my point.
I am not suggesting that the 1950s culture should have been maintained. What I said was that along with throwing out the ‘sacred cows’ of banjos, etc, Brad also lumped in things that aren’t sacred cows, that aren’t part of the 1950s, such as the biblical nature of the church as distinct from the culture, expository preaching, and solid worship music that is theologically sound.
I am not an outsider to Temple/North Ridge. I was employed there for six years, I spent 13 years there as a member actively involved, and many of my family members still attend. I have attended several services at North Ridge over the last few years.
In his book Brad makes the same point you make – THE cardinal sin of the church to day is irrelevance to the culture. To have lost people find the church strange is unthinkable to people like Brad. There is no biblical foundation to assume such a position. The Bible makes it clear that the church IS strange, that Christians are peculiar. The idea that the gospel is powerless unless it it wrapped in the language of the culture is an unbiblical assumption (1 Corinthians 2).
So I’m not defending ‘banjos in the basement.’ I’m saying that Brad used ‘banjos in the basement’ to tip over the historic biblical foundation Temple was built on.
Paul I have to disagree with you.
Having attended NorthRidge Church for 8 years…my life was radically changed through that ministry…specifically because of the relevant way it teaches God’s Unchanging Truth. You see while I didn’t grow up at Temple, I grew up in a similar; old skool, fundamental, King James 1611 ONLY, banjo playin Baptist Church. While this community was very loving and made my grandma who moved to Michigan from West Virginia very comfortable, as I got older the more uncomfortable I got. Each week I seemed to travel through some sort of time warp back into the fifties. To this congregation it seemed as if there was something about the 50s that was “holier” about their style than the present day. When I was 14 I stopped going…and didnt get back into church until I was invited by a friend in public high school to NorthRidge (then Temple) two years later. I tell people I learned more in the first 6 monthes at NorthRidge then I had learned in the previous 6 years at the old skool baptist church. I went on my first missions trip and was baptized all in the first year of going.
Specifically I would like to respond to your statement;
“He points to “bangos playing in the basement” to illustrate the church’s cultural irrelevance. I would point to the failure of the church’s leadership to biblically deal with sin, both among themselves and the members of the congregation. Temple died because the Spirit abandoned it, not because the culture found it irrelevant.”
irrelevance = sin. Regardless of how Brad refers to it in his book you must agree on this…to be irrelevant to the community in which your church resides, choosing to be comfortable holding on to a style that was relevant in the 50’s is sin. I wonder what if the pastor who preceded Brad did a teaching series on having a healthy marriage, ways to steer clear of adultery…if he would have been less likely to cave to “moral failure” and found his church growing because he was teaching something that was relevant to both him and community. Jesus Christ is always relevant and sadly it is His people and His churches that become irrelevant.
In the end, God used Brad and the ministry of NorthRidge to make me what I am today. I’m a middle school director, attending Seminary pursuing a Masters of Divinity. I encourage you to attend NRC for one month, talking to the people who attend and the staff there before you make any assumptions about the ministry from the outside. God is there…the spirit has returned.
Sorry for not spell checking, I got so stirred that I thought I was clicking my spell check and it posted. My prayers and my love I extend to you and your family, I was there when we had to lay Justin Paul in the ground and I am still with you now. I love you my brother!
Paul, I had forgotten you were a “bus kid”. Glory to God!!!!! I also owe my heritage to the Temple Baptist Church because of the Savior they proclaimed. As a young rebel in and out of drug usage and the rock and roll culture, the banjos were something to behold. These people were singing and shouting with tears running down their faces from “joy unspeakable”. These southern nut cases loved me with my long hair and wordly ways and showed me a far grander way. I remember Dr Stanly Cruise wittnessing many times to me, and then when he was through bro George Seeley got ahold of me, he then turned me over to Mel Pratt, and then we went and had a delicious dinner prepared by Mrs Francis Zimmerman prior to going “calling” to tell others that “ye must be born again”. I was’nt even saved the first time I went with them, they did not care, they wre determined to show me how to do it. They all had the same zeel and love for the Saviour, and I saw it in them. I had to have me a dose of that joy. Thirty seven years later and I still haven’t gotten over it. God allowed me the privlidge of serving in that very bus ministry. Did the light go out? Yes, but not the history or the influence. On a is a personal note, You and I differ on the Calvinist doctrine, but we love and serve the same Christ. And yes, we love Him, because He first loved us. God give us, if He wills, some more GB Vick”s, Stan Cruise”s, George Seeley’s and the whole lot of them. Praise God for their faithful witness to the saveing grace of our Lord and Savior.