Comments on: The “Chicken and Egg” Question for Church Leaders http://www.godandculture.com/blog/the-chicken-and-egg-question-for-church-leaders the paul edwards program Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:20:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: don http://www.godandculture.com/blog/the-chicken-and-egg-question-for-church-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-5558 don Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:48:56 +0000 http://www.godandculture.com/blog/?p=1677#comment-5558 Two viable positions. This reminds me of a discussion I had with Ben on this blog several years ago. The conclusion I drew from his statements was that he believed most growth was ill gotten due to it being initiated by what he perceived to be man's desire rather than God's. My position was that God desires, encourages, and enables growth both on a personal and institutional level. The logic; more people translates to more to preach to. "Who 'will' have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" Paul, I think I had placed you squarely in Ben's position and perhaps I was wrong. I was wrong back in 1963 also. Arthur's point is also valid. I have witnessed churches with attendance of 6 to 25k operate quite efficiently without the multiple titles and departments as suggested, however there is much time spent in a day that is not given over to "ministering" only, so why not pray and plan to reach and minister to as many as God with bless us with. Growth is not evil in and of itself, but should it become the driving force, as it has in some of our history, then its does become man's doing rather than God's, and to this point I agree with Ben. When it is the Lord's doing it is marvelous in our eyes. Perhaps we could "Press toward the mark" in our own respective congregations. That should consume most of the energies that our Father grants us. Two viable positions.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with Ben on this blog several years ago. The conclusion I drew from his statements was that he believed most growth was ill gotten due to it being initiated by what he perceived to be man’s desire rather than God’s. My position was that God desires, encourages, and enables growth both on a personal and institutional level. The logic; more people translates to more to preach to. “Who ‘will’ have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”

Paul, I think I had placed you squarely in Ben’s position and perhaps I was wrong. I was wrong back in 1963 also.

Arthur’s point is also valid. I have witnessed churches with attendance of 6 to 25k operate quite efficiently without the multiple titles and departments as suggested, however there is much time spent in a day that is not given over to “ministering” only, so why not pray and plan to reach and minister to as many as God with bless us with.

Growth is not evil in and of itself, but should it become the driving force, as it has in some of our history, then its does become man’s doing rather than God’s, and to this point I agree with Ben.

When it is the Lord’s doing it is marvelous in our eyes.

Perhaps we could “Press toward the mark” in our own respective congregations. That should consume most of the energies that our Father grants us.

]]> By: Arthur Sido http://www.godandculture.com/blog/the-chicken-and-egg-question-for-church-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-5549 Arthur Sido Sat, 02 Jan 2010 16:22:45 +0000 http://www.godandculture.com/blog/?p=1677#comment-5549 I really don't see the "pastoral epistles" demonstrating an administrative structure. I also think it is an enormous leap to go from Acts 6 (some men picked out to make sure that widows were not overlooked) and come up with the Mars Hill "Central Operations Pastor" who is: Pastor Tim Beltz leads and manages the central operations branch, which includes finances, HR, capital projects, and technology. It seems that in our desire to manage the process we have turned the program into the main thing instead of ministering to people. I really don’t see the “pastoral epistles” demonstrating an administrative structure. I also think it is an enormous leap to go from Acts 6 (some men picked out to make sure that widows were not overlooked) and come up with the Mars Hill “Central Operations Pastor” who is: Pastor Tim Beltz leads and manages the central operations branch, which includes finances, HR, capital projects, and technology.

It seems that in our desire to manage the process we have turned the program into the main thing instead of ministering to people.

]]> By: Paul Edwards http://www.godandculture.com/blog/the-chicken-and-egg-question-for-church-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-5548 Paul Edwards Sat, 02 Jan 2010 15:18:11 +0000 http://www.godandculture.com/blog/?p=1677#comment-5548 The priority of administrative structures is not a question on which the New Testament is silent. Acts 6 (and other places in the Acts of the Apostles, and especially Paul's pastoral epistles) give us the history of an infant church dealing with rapid growth and putting a structure in place to manage people and processes. It seems, therefore, that the Holy Spirit works through and with the management of human resources. Ministry can't run on auto-pilot. The priority of administrative structures is not a question on which the New Testament is silent. Acts 6 (and other places in the Acts of the Apostles, and especially Paul’s pastoral epistles) give us the history of an infant church dealing with rapid growth and putting a structure in place to manage people and processes. It seems, therefore, that the Holy Spirit works through and with the management of human resources. Ministry can’t run on auto-pilot.

]]> By: Arthur Sido http://www.godandculture.com/blog/the-chicken-and-egg-question-for-church-leaders/comment-page-1#comment-5547 Arthur Sido Sat, 02 Jan 2010 14:59:59 +0000 http://www.godandculture.com/blog/?p=1677#comment-5547 That skips the more pertinent question. Should the church be focused on "administrative structures" and "ministry programs" in the first place? Peter didn't wait on the day of Pentecost to have a sufficient number of trained professional staff in place, he just preached the Gospel. That skips the more pertinent question. Should the church be focused on “administrative structures” and “ministry programs” in the first place? Peter didn’t wait on the day of Pentecost to have a sufficient number of trained professional staff in place, he just preached the Gospel.

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